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-   -   Deprivation and poverty... (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/deprivation-poverty-935937/)

Lion in Winter Dec 1st 2020 11:53 am

Deprivation and poverty...
 
I know that objectively speaking we know this is happening, but we push it away. I've been given many first-hand accounts recently due to my current work with a charity, but I watched the video in the linked article this morning and it just made me even angrier. Angry with the government that has provoked this, with the smug, fat Johnson now at the helm and babbling about sunlit uplands, and at our repeated failure to do any better and blaming people for their own misfortunes. And100,000 young people a year now emerge from 15 years of education without even 5 decent gcses to their name. What will happen to them and the places where they live? Large numbers of people go hungry every day. How are we not only still tolerating this, but excusing it?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-55133081

If you are feeling very down at the moment, you might not want to watch the video.

We have to do better. It's shameful.

Bipat Dec 1st 2020 3:30 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12941698)
1 )I know that objectively speaking we know this is happening, but we push it away. I've been given many first-hand accounts recently due to my current work with a charity, but I watched the video in the linked article this morning and it just made me even angrier.2) Angry with the government that has provoked this, with the smug, fat Johnson now at the helm and babbling about sunlit uplands, and at our repeated failure to do any better and blaming people for their own misfortunes. 3)And100,000 young people a year now emerge from 15 years of education without even 5 decent gcses to their name. What will happen to them and the places where they live? Large numbers of people go hungry every day. How are we not only still tolerating this, but excusing it?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-55133081

If you are feeling very down at the moment, you might not want to watch the video.

We have to do better. It's shameful.

!) Yes this exists has always existed. Yes--- feeling down and no chance of seeing any family for Christmas or when?---OH elderly and health problems. Children scared of passing anything. Two of them front line workers. WhatsApp a blessing.

2) It is all governments not just this one. I spent years as a GP wading through faeces/urine encrusted floor covering of neglected elderlies with dementia. Seen the grey baby nappies --and rashes---no washing machine! The hungry school children Seen the teenagers in Thatchers time (VAT on all clothes capable of being worn by an adult)---the boys with underpants hanging by just threads on a waist band---the rags of coats in the cloak room (I did school pre leaving examinations).

What is the answer ----- increase in minimum wage doesn't necessarily mean increased spending on food. The closure of many 'sure start' groups a big mistake.

3) This is a different issue and not always related to poverty otherwise why do migrant origin children do well.


KJMW Dec 2nd 2020 11:47 am

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12941698)
I know that objectively speaking we know this is happening, but we push it away. I've been given many first-hand accounts recently due to my current work with a charity, but I watched the video in the linked article this morning and it just made me even angrier. Angry with the government that has provoked this, with the smug, fat Johnson now at the helm and babbling about sunlit uplands, and at our repeated failure to do any better and blaming people for their own misfortunes. And100,000 young people a year now emerge from 15 years of education without even 5 decent gcses to their name. What will happen to them and the places where they live? Large numbers of people go hungry every day. How are we not only still tolerating this, but excusing it?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-55133081

If you are feeling very down at the moment, you might not want to watch the video.

We have to do better. It's shameful.

I don't for one moment think what I'm about to say will go down well with anyone but, here I go! I did watch the video and I simply wasn't too surprised that any of those shown receiving food didn't look malnourished. The 'community' was what? Certainly not a street or district in Burnley. Probably a charity that people gravitate too for various reasons. To suggest the the government and 'fat' Johnson is to blame is ridiculous. Just what does it say of you that your response is to start calling people names? I was born into real poverty and knew hunger and being cold but even back then and I'm going back over 70 years ,no one in Britain starved. Yes hungry and cold but the nonsense spouted now about poverty and hunger is ludicrous no one is starving. It was patently obvious in the clip that at least a portion of the people shown were handicapped both mentally or physically. It was also obvious that those 'sleeping on the concrete' choose to. That you work for a charity is commendable but your blaming of government and people who say 'it's their own fault' is lamentable. Quite obviously many in need are handicapped by their circumstances but certainly not all.
I have had soup at a soup kitchen, holes in my shoes and been bloody hungry so I do know what I'm talking about. people like you simply blame others for peoples shortcomings and inability to look after themselves. That's the world we live in today. Dependant and the blame game, that's the rule today and you are playing it. As for the kids leaving school without even 5 GCSEs to their name, I left with none, zilch; as did most kids of my generation; very few of them would have ended up in a 'community"! You say you are angry, well I can assure you that I'm bloody angry as well. Angry at those who simply blame others for whatever troubles them. Blame the government for everything , then the teachers, Police anyone except themselves, bloody right I'm angry!!!!

mfh Dec 2nd 2020 1:06 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 
:goodpost:

Lion in Winter Dec 2nd 2020 1:36 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 
Excellent. Glad to hear that there's no problem then. Sorted.

Hope someone passes the message along. Wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly feel like there's anything different we should be doing.

Bipat Dec 2nd 2020 2:17 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12942081)
Excellent. Glad to hear that there's no problem then. Sorted.

Hope someone passes the message along. Wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly feel like there's anything different we should be doing.

The above poster was referring to post war years and yes I know what it was like then.
However 'now' is different and no child should go hungry to school or be ashamed of their clothes.

Yes there are those who waste money, are not able to understand budgeting, many spending on drink, drugs etc. As above poster indicated often obese people are shown complaining about not enough income for food!
The free school meals system in UK (recently in news should be supported and increased (and thank heavens for Primark!)

There is also the great disparity in wealth---You work for a charity--when poverty is shown on TV --self +OH always say same thing---- about both our countries "what are the billionaires doing"----yes- some do so much for the poor, but most absolutely nothing!
When a TV 'program' such as children in need is shown millions of ordinary people give what they can, why not the ultra wealthy.
Look at the example of Philip Green--- people now out of work this Christmas --will not get their full pensions ---why does the government not ring-fence pension money?
Look at Vijay Mallya--- £billion fraud, still avoiding extradition, a UK court increased his weekly expenses allowance to £18,000 a week!




Sugarmooma Dec 2nd 2020 4:12 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by KJMW (Post 12942044)
I don't for one moment think what I'm about to say will go down well with anyone but, here I go! I did watch the video and I simply wasn't too surprised that any of those shown receiving food didn't look malnourished. The 'community' was what? Certainly not a street or district in Burnley. Probably a charity that people gravitate too for various reasons. To suggest the the government and 'fat' Johnson is to blame is ridiculous. Just what does it say of you that your response is to start calling people names? I was born into real poverty and knew hunger and being cold but even back then and I'm going back over 70 years ,no one in Britain starved. Yes hungry and cold but the nonsense spouted now about poverty and hunger is ludicrous no one is starving. It was patently obvious in the clip that at least a portion of the people shown were handicapped both mentally or physically. It was also obvious that those 'sleeping on the concrete' choose to. That you work for a charity is commendable but your blaming of government and people who say 'it's their own fault' is lamentable. Quite obviously many in need are handicapped by their circumstances but certainly not all.
I have had soup at a soup kitchen, holes in my shoes and been bloody hungry so I do know what I'm talking about. people like you simply blame others for peoples shortcomings and inability to look after themselves. That's the world we live in today. Dependant and the blame game, that's the rule today and you are playing it. As for the kids leaving school without even 5 GCSEs to their name, I left with none, zilch; as did most kids of my generation; very few of them would have ended up in a 'community"! You say you are angry, well I can assure you that I'm bloody angry as well. Angry at those who simply blame others for whatever troubles them. Blame the government for everything , then the teachers, Police anyone except themselves, bloody right I'm angry!!!!

A lot of us have lived through hard times. A lot of us managed to cope with it, get through it and make a good life. Just remember not everyone is as strong as you or I were or maybe not as intelligent or savvy enough to know what to do to help themselves to survive. It is not one size fits all. Everyone has a story to tell and they are all different.

It makes me angry when leaders ( yes, Johnson/ Trump) are blind to the needs of the lower income people and families. Unless you have been involved in a charity or as a volunteer you will stay blinkered. Yes your generation and my generation went through poverty and hardship but that doesn't mean history should repeat itself. We are better than that.

Compassion seems to have disappeared.


Lion in Winter Dec 2nd 2020 4:28 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12942100)
The above poster was referring to post war years and yes I know what it was like then.
However 'now' is different and no child should go hungry to school or be ashamed of their clothes.

Yes there are those who waste money, are not able to understand budgeting, many spending on drink, drugs etc. As above poster indicated often obese people are shown complaining about not enough income for food!
The free school meals system in UK (recently in news should be supported and increased (and thank heavens for Primark!)

There is also the great disparity in wealth---You work for a charity--when poverty is shown on TV --self +OH always say same thing---- about both our countries "what are the billionaires doing"----yes- some do so much for the poor, but most absolutely nothing!
When a TV 'program' such as children in need is shown millions of ordinary people give what they can, why not the ultra wealthy.
Look at the example of Philip Green--- people now out of work this Christmas --will not get their full pensions ---why does the government not ring-fence pension money?
Look at Vijay Mallya--- £billion fraud, still avoiding extradition, a UK court increased his weekly expenses allowance to £18,000 a week!


You are sounding like a dangerous socialist there :lol: But yes, there is no excuse for a wealthy country to have this situation.

The Victorian idea of the deserving and the undeserving poor is judgmental to no good end, and removes responsibility from those who could act to make things different. There is a difference between reasons and excuses. Lots of people make poor choices, including a lot of very wealthy people. I'm fairly sure that Boris has spent a fair bit on drugs himself over the years, not to mention fathering children out of wedlock. But he is one of the underserving rich and so he gets a pass. If we want a better and a fairer society, with fewer social problems, then the reasons for the current situation need to be addressed. For example, since 2010 funding for youth services has been cut by 70% - that's youth clubs and activities, advice and support, mental health services, and more. Places for children and young people to turn when life at home isn't giving them what they need. There's no excuse for that.

Bipat Dec 2nd 2020 7:54 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12942134)
1)You are sounding like a dangerous socialist there :lol: But yes, there is no excuse for a wealthy country to have this situation.

2) The Victorian idea of the deserving and the undeserving poor is judgmental to no good end, and removes responsibility from those who could act to make things different. There is a difference between reasons and excuses. Lots of people make poor choices, including a lot of very wealthy people. I'm fairly sure that Boris has spent a fair bit on drugs himself over the years, not to mention fathering children out of wedlock. But he is one of the underserving rich and so he gets a pass. If we want a better and a fairer society, with fewer social problems, then the reasons for the current situation need to be addressed. 3)For example, since 2010 funding for youth services has been cut by 70% - that's youth clubs and activities, advice and support, mental health services, and more. 4)Places for children and young people to turn when life at home isn't giving them what they need. There's no excuse for that.

1) OH calls me a 'communist'----- I think that I am a 'centrist'!
2) Some 'poor' are undeserving but most are just victims of circumstance and need some sort of help.
3) 4) Agree.

Anian Dec 2nd 2020 8:17 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 
I don't remember there ever being food banks when I lived in the UK, but they seemed to appear during the recession in 2008 and are a staple now. Living on benefits was never that great (despite what the red tops would have you believe) and it seems to be even worse these days.

Jerseygirl Dec 2nd 2020 9:01 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Anian (Post 12942186)
I don't remember there ever being food banks when I lived in the UK, but they seemed to appear during the recession in 2008 and are a staple now. Living on benefits was never that great (despite what the red tops would have you believe) and it seems to be even worse these days.

Neither did I.

Sugarmooma Dec 2nd 2020 9:50 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 12942195)
Neither did I.

Growing up there were way more open spaces, less houses. People had large gardens or allotments to grow vegetables and fruit or raise chickens. There was a better chance to be self sufficient. Sadly the green spaces have disappeared.

Jsmth321 Dec 2nd 2020 10:34 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 
Anyone know if food banks in UK are seeing increases in non-lower income demographic?

While this article is specific to Ontario, food banks across Canada are seeing increasing demand, this year demand has surged.

But demographics are changing and food banks are seeing more employed people using their services.

Top 3 reason for increased use being lack of affordable housing, , insufficient social assistance programs, and growth in precarious employment (more jobs going part-time, casual, or gig based.)

Over the last 4 years, 44% increase in employed using food banks.

86% of food bank users are renters either private rental market or subsidized housing, and spend most of their income on housing, which of course then makes it nearly impossible to build any financial savings to cushion bad times.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...2020-1.5821171


Seems UK, US, and other western countries are becoming worse by the year. Moving to a society where there will be lower class and upper class and nobody in the middle, guess like the old days.



Renters also tend not to have land/space to grow food, and even a garden plot wont provide enough food to last through winter and spring, and usually cost money to rent, and many apartment & condo buildings don't allow patio gardens as they are deemed unsightly.



BristolUK Dec 2nd 2020 10:46 pm

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12942215)
Anyone know if food banks in UK are seeing increases in non-lower income demographic?

Yes. Can't give any stats but I remember two or three years ago reading that they had seen change in client use. People in work reportedly using them, even nurses. :ohmy:

Lion in Winter Dec 3rd 2020 12:45 am

re: Deprivation and poverty...
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12942182)
1) OH calls me a 'communist'----- I think that I am a 'centrist'!
2) Some 'poor' are undeserving but most are just victims of circumstance and need some sort of help.
3) 4) Agree.


Part of my view is that whether or not people are "deserving" is beside the point really.We have to resolve the conditions that cause the problem, whether people are behaving well or not. If we don't, we will just get more of the behaviour that others don't like. Victorian charity works at the end of the process, when the results of what is lacking show up. A social plan would work much further upstream to remove the causes.


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