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Consider myself open-minded....but

Consider myself open-minded....but

Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:27 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Of course being polite is the preferred method but in my job I have some concerns in how to deal with such a person should they need searching and especially if a strip search is required. Our protocols stipulate that a search should be carried out by an officer of the same sex. However a male/female can conduct such a search if there are grounds to believe the person being searched presents a danger and no other officers of the same sex are available. This type of search would not usually result in the removal of most clothing articles however could lead to a full strip search.
Should our Agency now have to hire a quota of person(s) who don't identify as male/female?
So yes I do worry a bit as this is my day to day life until of course I retire.

​And of course you can't ask which gender they would prefer to carry out the search, as that could provoke some "interesting" responses.​​​​​​
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Sure, it definitely can complicate some things, as being considerate of others often does. In my work, we have to deal with teens a lot and the bathrooms and room/cabin/tent sharing issue comes into play. It usually requires providing more facilities. But what is the alternative? It isn't going away, it has been present since the human race has been present. Is it bad to have to go to some trouble in order to be considerate of minority variances? I'm sure we could all think of some other variances that causes inconvenience too.
And of course, this can (should) work both ways. Occasionally, just occasionally, minorities should recognise that they are just that and not automatically expect the majority to bend to every whim.

​​​​​​​Help me out here please. Is a "trans man" a man becoming a woman or t'other way around - I am genuinely confused.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:30 pm
  #17  
 
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
What is the alternative to what?
To doing what makes these minorities comfortable and feel respected.

We have acknowledged some complications from doing so. If that's all, then sure, it's more complicated - for the majority at least, it may be a lot less complicated for the minorities in question. If that's as far as the discussion goes, then there really isn't any more to be done. Or even said.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:37 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
See my post to Former Lancastrian, above.

What is the alternative?
Considering the number of post op types is fairly small you could just ask whether the human in question is a dick or a c***.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:39 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Considering the number of post op types is fairly small you could just ask whether the human in question is a dick or a c***.
Complicates the question if they answer NEITHER or BOTH?
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:41 pm
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
​And of course you can't ask which gender they would prefer to carry out the search, as that could provoke some "interesting" responses.​​​​​​
I have not found this to be the case at all. We have our teens say, on a private form, where they belong in terms of sleeping and bathroom arrangements. That seems to go just fine, with no complaints or indignation.



Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
And of course, this can (should) work both ways. Occasionally, just occasionally, minorities should recognise that they are just that and not automatically expect the majority to bend to every whim.
Minorities compromise all the time, don't they? They live in a majority world, after all. The fact that a minority becomes vocal doesn't make it unreasonable, and they are vocal precisely because nothing happens "automatically". Most social movements to recognize minority rights follow this pattern - women's rights, other civil rights, etc. Gender and sexuality are pretty fundamental. They are not whims.

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Help me out here please. Is a "trans man" a man becoming a woman or t'other way around - I am genuinely confused.
Neither really. As I understand it, a transgender man has always felt himself to be a man, but was born with female secondary sexual characteristics and was therefore categorized as a woman. A "trans woman" would be the converse. So they aren't "becoming" anything, they are living (sometimes with the help of surgery and chemistry) as the gender they truly feel themselves to be just as you feel yourself to be a man and I feel myself to be a woman.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Dec 29th 2019 at 1:50 pm.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 1:44 pm
  #21  
 
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Considering the number of post op types is fairly small you could just ask whether the human in question is a dick or a c***.
Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Complicates the question if they answer NEITHER or BOTH?
I suspect this might fail the basic politeness test.

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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:00 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I have not found this to be the case at all. We have our teens say, on a private form, where they belong in terms of sleeping and bathroom arrangements. That seems to go just fine, with no complaints or indignation.
We were talking strip search - bit different.



Neither really. As I understand it, a transgender man has always felt himself to be a man, but was born with female secondary sexual characteristics and was therefore categorized as a woman. A "trans woman" would be the converse. So they aren't "becoming" anything, they are living (sometimes with the help of surgery and chemistry) as the gender they truly feel themselves to be just as you feel yourself to be a man and I feel myself to be a woman.
Well, there you go. Asked a simple question - and got a clever (but very "correct") answer. I don't think I will bother in future and carry on in blissful ignorance.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:05 pm
  #23  
 
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
We were talking strip search - bit different.





Well, there you go. Asked a simple question - and got a clever (but very "correct") answer. I don't think I will bother in future and carry on in blissful ignorance.
Of course strip searches are complicated. As they should be. Tbh I don't think that "how do we do a strip search" should rank very highly when we are considering how members of our society should be treated other than to say "as little as possible and then with every possible consideration".

Not sure what you mean by "clever" or "correct" in this context. This is, I think, simply the biological explanation. What other answer would there be?

I honestly don't understand why this bothers people so much.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:12 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter

I honestly don't understand why this bothers people so much.
Judging by the number of posts it obviously bothers you.

Not me however, I am out.
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Judging by the number of posts it obviously bothers you.

Not me however, I am out.
Now I don't know why you're pissed.

I was just having what I thought was a civil conversation on an interesting topic.

TIO is a mess these days, it sets up non-existent arguments just by being TIO.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Dec 29th 2019 at 2:25 pm. Reason: Speeling
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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:27 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
To doing what makes these minorities comfortable and feel respected.

We have acknowledged some complications from doing so. If that's all, then sure, it's more complicated - for the majority at least, it may be a lot less complicated for the minorities in question. If that's as far as the discussion goes, then there really isn't any more to be done. Or even said.
It's one thing to acknowledge that there are complications but quite another to identify what they are (and are going to be) and do something about them.

I can't help thinking that nobody really knows where this is going nor how to deal with it and they are ignoring it all in the hope that the issues will sort themselves out with time.







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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:29 pm
  #27  
 
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
It's one thing to acknowledge that there are complications but quite another to identify what they are (and are going to be) and do something about them.

I can't help thinking that nobody really knows where this is going nor how to deal with it and they are ignoring it all in the hope that the issues will sort themselves out with time.
Yes, and part of the awkwardness we see if people trying to work out what to do about it. Given that, in the US at least, the estimate is that about 0.6% of the population is transgender I think it's unlikely to become a huge issue any time soon.

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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:40 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yes, and part of the awkwardness we see if people trying to work out what to do about it. Given that, in the US at least, the estimate is that about 0.6% of the population is transgender I think it's unlikely to become a huge issue any time soon.
Transgender people are not the problem - it is the potential issues - and there are many - that are raised by the subject that are the problem.

For instance not all people who claim to be a particular gender will be - they will be scamming. As I say not a problem caused by transgender people but caused by the issue.

How is that to be dealt with?






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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:43 pm
  #29  
 
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Transgender people are not the problem - it is the potential issues - and there are many - that are raised by the subject that are the problem.

For instance not all people who claim to be a particular gender will be - they will be scamming. As I say not a problem caused by transgender people but caused by the issue.

How is that to be dealt with?
I have no idea. Presumably in the same sorts of ways any other fraud is dealt with, if an actual crime is being committed. It seems that as a subset of the 0.6% of the population that is transgender, the percentage of those who are likely to be scamming (to what end?) is likely to be even tinier. Nor do I know why this is any different from any other social issue we deal with, other than the minuscule scale of it.

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Old Dec 29th 2019, 2:47 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: Consider myself open-minded....but

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Judging by the number of posts it obviously bothers you.

Not me however, I am out.
Yup
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