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BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:23 pm
  #496  
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Seemed a fair enough comment to me - 'austerity' cut hundreds of thousands of public sector posts.
But the quote referred to the private sector as well which has actually created many more jobs to offset any reduction in the public sector.

Don't forget, the UK had experiences a huge increase in public sector jobs with the then Labour government using it to buy votes as they did with the instance access to the UK for the newly arrived countries.
No small part of the latter was T Blair wanting to look the "good European" to bolster his hopes of becoming the EU President.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:31 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
UK Police Officer
Police constables: £19,971 - £23,124 (minimum) depending on skills and experience - £38,382 (maximum)

So a EU national or non EU national if qualified CANNOT be paid less as the rate is set and its a public sector job.


On September 15, 2017, the Department of Labor published a notice in the Federal Register to announce that, beginning January 1, 2018, the Executive Order 13658 minimum wage rate is increased to $10.35 per hour (82 FR 43408).Jan 8, 2018.

So if I was a car wash operator even though the minimum wage is 10.35 I bet I could find workers willing to do it for less.
If the Police could not find any workers at £19,971 they would have to start paying nearer the £23,124 to get new recruits.

If, because of a surplus of labour, they can find plenty of workers at £19,971 they do not have to pay more.

The surplus of labour ensures the pay rate for new recruits stay at the bottom of the band. It also ensures that the band ceiling does not need to rise as much as it would otherwise need to - i.e. the £23,124 does not need to go up much as they already have no problem getting new recruits.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:33 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I wonder how much responsibility immigrants have to shoulder for this sort of thing :

DPD to offer couriers sick pay and abolish fines after driver's death
Immigrants are not responsible, surplus labour though persistent high net immigration is - otherwise DPD would not have been able to get staff to work for such poor conditions and would have had to change practises a long time ago.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:41 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Just because you state it's a 'nonsense throwaway comment' doesn't make it one.
Actually, it does.
How do employment statistics compare over your ten year period?
They seem to have risen by over 2,500,000!
So, "those who still have a job" must be the norm rather than the exception.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:49 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Actually, it does.
How do employment statistics compare over your ten year period?
They seem to have risen by over 2,500,000!
So, "those who still have a job" must be the norm rather than the exception.
Where are you talking about.
The UK has record numbers in work and unemployment at least a million lower than your figure.
All this during our years of EU membership and high net immigration.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:53 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Where are you talking about.
The UK has record numbers in work and unemployment at least a million lower than your figure.
All this during our years of EU membership and high net immigration.
I said EMPLOYMENT numbers were up 2,500,000 over the last ten years.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 3:57 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Actually, it does.
How do employment statistics compare over your ten year period?
They seem to have risen by over 2,500,000!
So, "those who still have a job" must be the norm rather than the exception.
The private sector has increased the number of jobs, often by offering part-time hours instead of full-time. Two employees on 20 hr contracts can be scheduled to work together at the same time, whereas a single 40hr employee can't.

Public sector services and jobs have been cut in the name of austerity, and the users of these services are struggling.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 7:24 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
But the quote referred to the private sector as well which has actually created many more jobs to offset any reduction in the public sector.
But the quote you highlighted specifically referred to public sector workers and their wages in that sector over a 10 year period.

And you're contradicting Cape Blue, who claims that all the new jobs created are a direct result of mass-uncontrolled immigration of unskilled non-contributors generating more jobs for other immigrants to fill.

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Don't forget, the UK had experiences a huge increase in public sector jobs with the then Labour government using it to buy votes as they did with the instance access to the UK for the newly arrived countries.
Have you any evidence for either of those assertions? I would have thought them the oddest things for anybody, of any political persuasion, to actually give any credence to, let alone politicians themselves.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 7:43 pm
  #504  
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
Don't forget, the UK had experiences a huge increase in public sector jobs with the then Labour government using it to buy votes
Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Have you any evidence for either of those assertions? I would have thought them the oddest things for anybody, of any political persuasion, to actually give any credence to, let alone politicians themselves.
Channel 4 Fact Check: How many public sector jobs did Labour create?

Bear in mind that this report is from 2010.

A decade ago, there were 5,221,000 public sector employees. In 2009, there were 6,070,000 – an increase of 849,000.

At the same time, the total number of private sector jobs went up from 21,895,000 to 22,806,000 – a jump of 911,000.

The figures are pretty similar, but suggest just under half (849,000) of the additional 1.8m jobs were in the public sector, rather than – as the PM said – over half. However, he did give himself a bit of wriggle room, by saying the jobs were “associated in some way with public spending” rather than exclusively those on the public payroll.

So how do these public sector jobs break down? Unsuprisingly, those working in government departments, agencies and quangos are counted as part of the public sector workforce, as are teachers, police, NHS workers and the armed forces. But universities and further education colleges aren’t classified as public sector jobs; an ONS spokesman did not know why.

The big state total, does, however, include companies controlled by the government, such as Royal Mail and London Underground. These get more than half of their income from consumers rather than the public purse. The BBC and Channel 4 are also classed as adding to the public sector workforce – and in the past couple of years, employees from nationalised banks such as Lloyds TSB and Bradford & Bingley have swelled the headcount.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 8:06 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Yes, sorry, I wasn't disputing either the non-appliance of the available FoM controls or the additional public sector jobs.

It was the allegations of the motive of attempting to buy Labour votes from those people that I'm contesting.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 8:39 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
But the quote you highlighted specifically referred to public sector workers and their wages in that sector over a 10 year period.

And you're contradicting Cape Blue, who claims that all the new jobs created are a direct result of mass-uncontrolled immigration of unskilled non-contributors generating more jobs for other immigrants to fill.


Have you any evidence for either of those assertions? I would have thought them the oddest things for anybody, of any political persuasion, to actually give any credence to, let alone politicians themselves.
The quote was "What about 'austerity', which has seen public sector (and many other workers) pay increase by only 1% (or lower) every year for most of the last 10 years (for those who still have a job)."

The assertions about Labour hoping to buy votes through increased public sector jobs and uncontrolled immigration (there was a third one that I can't immediately recall) were common knowledge at the time. Look at the numbers quoted by DaveLovesDee where it shows public sector jobs rose by 16% whilst private sector ones only rose by 4%.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 8:50 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
And you're contradicting Cape Blue, who claims that all the new jobs created are a direct result of mass-uncontrolled immigration of unskilled non-contributors generating more jobs for other immigrants to fill.
Proponents of mass immigration use the lump of labour fallacy argument to show that each immigrant doesn't "take" a British job, because their very presence in the UK also creates another one.

I merely look at that in reverse and see that the reason we need more migration is to service the migrants that came before.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 9:41 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
The quote was "What about 'austerity', which has seen public sector (and many other workers) pay increase by only 1% (or lower) every year for most of the last 10 years (for those who still have a job)."
And?

Actually, I suppose I'm being a bit presumptuous here in assuming you know the purpose of parentheses in a sentence.


Originally Posted by Golden Years View Post
The assertions about Labour hoping to buy votes through increased public sector jobs and uncontrolled immigration (there was a third one that I can't immediately recall) were common knowledge at the time.
Ahhh, the assertions were common knowledge. OK, then, I see now. And your memory's a bit hazy about another assertion.

Oh, well, that clears it up completely then. Thanks very much.

Can I just clarify one point for you, though. Citizens of member states of the EU don't get votes in UK general elections, so even if they were daft enough to want to vote on the basis of who "let them in", they couldn't have voted for a Labour government anyway.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Proponents of mass immigration use the lump of labour fallacy argument to show that each immigrant doesn't "take" a British job, because their very presence in the UK also creates another one.

I merely look at that in reverse and see that the reason we need more migration is to service the migrants that came before.
I'm sure Golden Years will take account of those facts when he posts about such matters in future.

I'll remind him again if he doesn't.
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Old Mar 26th 2018, 10:35 pm
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Default Re: BREXIT...what possibly could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
And?

Actually, I suppose I'm being a bit presumptuous here in assuming you know the purpose of parentheses in a sentence.



Ahhh, the assertions were common knowledge. OK, then, I see now. And your memory's a bit hazy about another assertion.

Oh, well, that clears it up completely then. Thanks very much.

Can I just clarify one point for you, though. Citizens of member states of the EU don't get votes in UK general elections, so even if they were daft enough to want to vote on the basis of who "let them in", they couldn't have voted for a Labour government anyway.
I know what brackets mean in a sentence. If you have "public sector workers" on one hand and then you add "and many other workers" it is obvious that they are not public sector but private sector. Unless you have a different understanding?

As for the EU citizens, they do get to vote in local elections which are still very important to Labour at a constituency level and, of course, Irish, Cyprus, Malta and many qualifying Commonwealth country citizens get to vote in general elections.
I'll dig out some more background when I get chance but we are heading for the airport first thing tomorrow so you might start with https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-adviser.html to get a flavour for the vindictiveness of that Labour administration.

No comment about the 16%/4% split in public/private job creation under Labour?
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