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Brexit changes

Brexit changes

Old Jan 5th 2021, 8:12 am
  #91  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
When the circumstances have materially changed, would seem to be a reasonable basis.

So, for example, when offering a vision as an alternative to a reality, having got to the point where you're about to deliver on that, you could, in a grown-up democracy, allow the public decide whether what's on offer matches the originally-proffered fantasy or is otherwise acceptable to them, or whether they reject that in favour of keeping the status quo.


The grown up way is not to spread distortions, half-truths and outright lies about or to engage in populist tub-thumping to rouse emotions and generate panic as a means to getting your way.

Results obtained by deception or coercion are, needless to say, unpopular and unlikely to be regarded as acceptable over the long term.
Circumstances can 'materially change ' anytime and often.You are saying that every time that happened there should be a referendum? Very grown up!!
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 8:16 am
  #92  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Circumstances can 'materially change ' anytime and often.You are saying that every time that happened there should be a referendum? Very grown up!!
Why not. The oldest democracy in Europe has referendums all the time, even about the same topics. Opinions can change and if the population is supposed to rule in a democracy, well, those changed opinions should matter.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 8:40 am
  #93  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Circumstances can 'materially change ' anytime and often.You are saying that every time that happened there should be a referendum? Very grown up!!
Not really.

In the circumstances that you only very rarely hold referendums, though, it wouldn't be unreasonable where a massive change in the status quo is concerned and circumstances had materially changed since the question was asked. Like, for example, actually having a concrete proposal as to how things would be from then on, as opposed to some fancy notions of how it might turn out.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 9:29 am
  #94  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Assanah View Post
Why not. The oldest democracy in Europe has referendums all the time, even about the same topics. Opinions can change and if the population is supposed to rule in a democracy, well, those changed opinions should matter.
I think you are referring to Switzerland. The issues there are all local. The cantons have tremendous autonomy. Not quite the same thing as leaving the E.U.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 9:32 am
  #95  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Not really.

In the circumstances that you only very rarely hold referendums, though, it wouldn't be unreasonable where a massive change in the status quo is concerned and circumstances had materially changed since the question was asked. Like, for example, actually having a concrete proposal as to how things would be from then on, as opposed to some fancy notions of how it might turn out.
So just what is the 'massive' change in the UK and the EU? We have been out for four days!!
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 10:23 am
  #96  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
So just what is the 'massive' change in the UK and the EU? We have been out for four days!!
People are being refused boarding because there is total breakdown in communications between governments and airlines as to what ID is required for people returning to their HOMES, costs for getting and sending goods, even relatively small things, as, in many cases gone up 5x. A number of EU companies have just said they will NOT ship to the UK because the UK require them to register for VAT and to make regular VAT returns. This islikely to be the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 10:38 am
  #97  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
So just what is the 'massive' change in the UK and the EU? We have been out for four days!!
The post referred to when a referendum may be in order-and surely Brexiters promised massive changes with their talk about fantasies of an economic renaissance.

Starting January 1 changes are in place , and the effects have started and more effects will be seen as this all plays out. To take just 2 :

-The lunacy of imposing extra burdens on our exporters to our major market is already in place, and justified by the fantasy Brexit conception about trade deals.
- Additional burdens placed British firms needing highly skilled or experienced workers- making it more cumbersome, costly and less timely-are now in place. The sheer idiocy of this policy in the 21ty century is readily apparent.

I agree some changes will take time to evaluate- such as the idea of thousands of Brits on benefits will somehow save up money to move across the country to make perhaps a few extra quid an hour and willingly (let alone without complaining) engage in such work. Or the idea that reducing opportunities for British students, and universities, somehow represents a net benefit.- or that third world nations across the globe without universities in the top 100 will in an exercise of alternative reality rush to provide better opportunities to British students. let alone researchers.



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Old Jan 5th 2021, 10:57 am
  #98  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
People are being refused boarding because there is total breakdown in communications between governments and airlines as to what ID is required for people returning to their HOMES, costs for getting and sending goods, even relatively small things, as, in many cases gone up 5x. A number of EU companies have just said they will NOT ship to the UK because the UK require them to register for VAT and to make regular VAT returns. This islikely to be the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid.
The new rules for export favour UK big businesses that can easily overcome the red tape. Small exporters shipping to the continent will find things much more difficult and their prices will have to rise.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 12:23 pm
  #99  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
People are being refused boarding because there is total breakdown in communications between governments and airlines as to what ID is required for people returning to their HOMES, costs for getting and sending goods, even relatively small things, as, in many cases gone up 5x. A number of EU companies have just said they will NOT ship to the UK because the UK require them to register for VAT and to make regular VAT returns. This islikely to be the tip of the iceberg I'm afraid.
There isn't a 'total' breakdown between governments An airline made a cock up. Both governments have said the documents are o.k. The costs of 'small' things has gone up; you say. And there is aVAT problem with some firms. that is a 'MASSIVE' problem. You must live a very protected life!
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 12:30 pm
  #100  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
There isn't a 'total' breakdown between governments An airline made a cock up.
That you think there has only been one situation shows you're insufficiently informed again.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 12:35 pm
  #101  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
That you think there has only been one situation shows you're insufficiently informed again.

And you have the P.Ms ear I take it?
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 12:59 pm
  #102  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
And you have the P.Ms ear I take it?
What an odd thing to say.
How's that relevant to reading of multiple examples of the topic in question? You really are puzzling sometimes.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 1:03 pm
  #103  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
What an odd thing to say.
How's that relevant to reading of multiple examples of the topic in question? You really are puzzling sometimes.
Relevant, oh, you mean as in your previous post? Being misinformed; ring a bell? No, never mind it doesn't matter .
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 1:22 pm
  #104  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
You asked the question and I took the trouble to answer.
Don't bother to ask another.
No, Dave. You didn't or couldn't answer the question.

What you took the trouble to do was try and disguise that by rambling on at great length with vague platitudes about the importance of delivering Brexit.
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Old Jan 5th 2021, 1:36 pm
  #105  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
So just what is the 'massive' change in the UK and the EU? We have been out for four days!!
The massive change to the status quo is the difference between being inside and being outside the EU and on what basis that has been negotiated. As you have rightly pointed out several times, there was only the question of in or out on the ballot paper and as we also all know there are many ways in which that could have been satisfied besides the one arrived at, which was almost entirely driven by ERG types exerting their grip on the PMs of the day and not as a result of either public opinion or parliament having a proper say in things.

The entire process was mismanaged from start to finish and the result we have on the future trade relationship is very much imbalanced in favour of the EU - something which was not part of any of the leave campaigns' stated intentions.

So in my opinion, a 2nd referendum called prior to the point of no return would not have been an undemocratic solution, given what the government's stated intentions and the negotiations over the terms of the withdrawal alone had revealed (which was quite different to some of the Leave promises and also did not take into account the closeness of the result of the referendum).

However, I would only have been a very lukewarm supporter of a 2nd ref for 2 reasons.

The first is that at the point it could have been of any use (ie before the end of the Article 50 period, when we could still have retained all the special tailor-made UK extra-privileged member benefits, rebates, optouts and other luxury add-ons or take-aways), we would have known relatively little about the future relationship bar the stated intentions in the political statement. And getting that across to a population that has very little appetite for understanding nuance and complexity would have been a mammoth task.

And the second is that the country wasn't mature enough to conduct the first referendum in a civilised manner, respectful of the realities, and that during the intervening interval things had become still more distorted.

Anyway, once the WA had been signed off back in January last year, the issue of a 2nd referendum obviously became totally redundant. And in my view, although the terms of our relationship with the EU will be a constant issue, any question of rejoining will not occur in my lifetime, since there's zero chance of the UK accepting FoM again, let alone the obligations to join Schengen and the Euro currency.
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