Brexit changes
Jan 4th 2021, 7:50 am
#76
Who - me?
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,821
Re: Brexit changes
It's gone so wrong and become so ingrained that many people no longer regard it as abnormal to have politicians and other public figures speaking in that manner.
Jan 4th 2021, 8:26 am
#77
Concierge
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2006
Location: ex ex-pat, in Taunton
Posts: 24,478
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by KJMW
More drivel. Losing the referendum appears to remoaners be when Britain 'lost democracy'. Utter drivel. Parliament had its say many times as the courts and the law of the land. There is nothing wrong with public discourse either. Remoaners make that point quite strongly; they haven't stopped carping since losing the referendum.
Jan 4th 2021, 8:40 am
#78
Preparing to move again
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Charente Maritime
Posts: 6,063
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by mikelincs
Do you really think that leavers would have remained silent if they had lost?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics...endum-36306681
Jan 4th 2021, 9:45 am
#79
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 6,339
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by KJMW
More drivel. Losing the referendum appears to remoaners be when Britain 'lost democracy'. Utter drivel. Parliament had its say many times as the courts and the law of the land. There is nothing wrong with public discourse either. Remoaners make that point quite strongly; they haven't stopped carping since losing the referendum.
Jan 4th 2021, 11:26 am
#80
Overkill is underrated
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,403
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by morpeth
What would have been un-democratic about holding a second referendum ? There had been more debate, and more information by then available.
Jan 4th 2021, 1:01 pm
#81
Concierge
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2006
Location: ex ex-pat, in Taunton
Posts: 24,478
Re: Brexit changes
Just seen a comment from someone who has regularly sent stuff to the EU, cost was around £30, their latest invoice for the same item is £165 to £170 depending on service.
Jan 4th 2021, 1:22 pm
#82
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Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Central Italy
Posts: 1,677
Re: Brexit changes
The Uk Government wasnt ready for Brexit.. The embassy in Rome posted the list of necessary documents for UK citizens resident in Italy to reenter the country only on 31 December. . Not much notice for anyone returning after Xmas.
Along with a passport you need a utility bill, an Id card or a certificate of residence. Not things people always carry around.
Along with a passport you need a utility bill, an Id card or a certificate of residence. Not things people always carry around.
Last edited by philat98; Jan 4th 2021 at 1:25 pm.
Jan 4th 2021, 1:56 pm
#83
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Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,821
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by philat98
The Uk Government wasnt ready for Brexit.. The embassy in Rome posted the list of necessary documents for UK citizens resident in Italy to reenter the country only on 31 December. . Not much notice for anyone returning after Xmas.
Along with a passport you need a utility bill, an Id card or a certificate of residence. Not things people always carry around.
Along with a passport you need a utility bill, an Id card or a certificate of residence. Not things people always carry around.
That hasn't been proof against some very regrettable incidents with regard to residents of Spain, but that's another matter.
Jan 4th 2021, 3:15 pm
#84
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 427
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by dave_j
We've been over this ground before many times.
A question was put to the UK electorate and a result obtained.
Subsequent UK governments have decided to execute that result.
Now many who disagreed with the result have argued that false and misleading information contributed to the result and this may be true but UK governments have judged that it was in the interest of governance not to gainsay the referendum result itself.
Others have argued that the referendum was advisory and should have been ignored and have suggested that to follow the result was wrong, and that in economic terms this was the wrong decision, and you may be correct. From the viewpoint of the government the question was undoubtedly whether more damage, not just economic but in terms of governance, would be done by effectively disenfranchising those who voted to leave than would be the case in executing their wishes.
I'm not dismissing other arguments that the government of the day found itself under pressure from various pressure groups demanding a Brexit outcome and indeed may have desired it itself, but underlying all these different issues was the referendum result itself.
But in answer to your question.
I suppose the point of Brexit, when you strip out all emotional factors, boiled down to this. Do we have a democratic system of government or don't we?
A question was put to the UK electorate and a result obtained.
Subsequent UK governments have decided to execute that result.
Now many who disagreed with the result have argued that false and misleading information contributed to the result and this may be true but UK governments have judged that it was in the interest of governance not to gainsay the referendum result itself.
Others have argued that the referendum was advisory and should have been ignored and have suggested that to follow the result was wrong, and that in economic terms this was the wrong decision, and you may be correct. From the viewpoint of the government the question was undoubtedly whether more damage, not just economic but in terms of governance, would be done by effectively disenfranchising those who voted to leave than would be the case in executing their wishes.
I'm not dismissing other arguments that the government of the day found itself under pressure from various pressure groups demanding a Brexit outcome and indeed may have desired it itself, but underlying all these different issues was the referendum result itself.
But in answer to your question.
I suppose the point of Brexit, when you strip out all emotional factors, boiled down to this. Do we have a democratic system of government or don't we?
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
Jan 4th 2021, 3:20 pm
#85
Preparing to move again
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Charente Maritime
Posts: 6,063
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by GeneralPowerpoint
Dave_J I must congratulate you on your ability to write some 250 words and say absolutely nothing.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
Jan 4th 2021, 3:49 pm
#86
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 2,911
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by GeneralPowerpoint
Dave_J I must congratulate you on your ability to write some 250 words and say absolutely nothing.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
Don't bother to ask another.
Jan 4th 2021, 6:59 pm
#87
Overkill is underrated
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,403
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by GeneralPowerpoint
Dave_J I must congratulate you on your ability to write some 250 words and say absolutely nothing.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
I asked you what the point of Brexit was, and you tell me that the point of Brexit was to carry out the result of a referendum on Brexit.
It seems for all your talk of opportunities, you cannot think of a single one of them and have instead opted to argue for Brexit for Brexit's sake.
Originally Posted by Annetje
Poor Dave is stuck in referendum time.
Narrator:
It's just a jump to the left
All:
And then a step to the right
Narrator:
With your hands on your hips
All:
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the time-warp again
Let's do the time-warp again
It's just a jump to the left
All:
And then a step to the right
Narrator:
With your hands on your hips
All:
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the time-warp again
Let's do the time-warp again
Originally Posted by dave_j
You asked the question and I took the trouble to answer.
Don't bother to ask another.
Don't bother to ask another.
Jan 5th 2021, 6:09 am
#88
Banned
Joined: Nov 2019
Location: St Pée sur Nivelle
Posts: 992
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by morpeth
What would have been un-democratic about holding a second referendum ? There had been more debate, and more information by then available.
Jan 5th 2021, 6:51 am
#89
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 2,911
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by KJMW
To answer your question: It can't be undemocratic to have another referendum. More to the point though is how many referendums do you think should be held? Weekly, monthly or annually? Yes more information comes to light and will continue to do so ad infinitum but just when do you accept a referendum result; when it suits your argument? The grown up way is to hold a vote, give the facts at the time and then abide by the result.
But why stop at referenda?
Why not extend the principle to general elections?
Personally I'd like to choose from a best out of three, and if that doesn't work I'd suggest a decision based on a penalty shootout.
We could then argue forever about the shape of the ball, the weather, the influence of little green men from Mars, in fact anything that provides a reason for voting again.
Jan 5th 2021, 8:05 am
#90
Who - me?
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Posts: 13,821
Re: Brexit changes
Originally Posted by KJMW
To answer your question: It can't be undemocratic to have another referendum. More to the point though is how many referendums do you think should be held? Weekly, monthly or annually? Yes more information comes to light and will continue to do so ad infinitum but just when do you accept a referendum result; when it suits your argument?
So, for example, when offering a vision as an alternative to a reality, having got to the point where you're about to deliver on that, you could, in a grown-up democracy, allow the public decide whether what's on offer matches the originally-proffered fantasy or is otherwise acceptable to them, or whether they reject that in favour of keeping the status quo.
Originally Posted by KJMW
The grown up way is to hold a vote, give the facts at the time and then abide by the result.
Results obtained by deception or coercion are, needless to say, unpopular and unlikely to be regarded as acceptable over the long term.
