GeneralPowerpoint

Why couldn’t Leave voters get it right when we were part of the EU? We’re they too feckless and lazy to see the opportunities we enjoyed while part of the EU?

mikelincs

Basically they were brainwashed by a media onslaught about the dangers that immigrants created with crime and taking British jobs, jobs tha tthe british wouldn't do in any case, there was also the huge impact the lie of £350 million a week for the NHS created. MSM, including the BBC were in a big part responsible, as the owners, and the major donors to the Tory party could see a lot of money to be made, and later the desire to be gone before the new tax rules came in, which would have affected them to a large degree.

Lion in Winter

This might be true if the starting line of the race were in the same place for everyone, but it is not. The kinds of changes that Brexit brings are mostly likely to present opportunities for those operating at the highest levels of trade, business, and finance who have the flexibility and oppportunity to make money out of any situation at all, irrespective of its effects on anyone else.

To claim that the people now struggling in the depths of deprivation and all the negative fallout from that which makes others write them off as "the undeserving poor", sometimes now for generations, have the same opportunities, is, frankly, nonsense. You may not care about them, but they affect both our society and our economy.

Nobody has been able to explain in any specific way what the benefits or opportunities of leaving the EU will be, not only to people in desperate situations, but just to normal working people. Some have claimed that wages for the low income will go up because there will be fewer immigrants. This is wishful thinking, as though business won't adapt and find sources of cheap labour elsewhere if it has to, or have their friends in Westminster open the doors even wider to non EU immigrants. Other than this, specific claims for benefits to the gen pop = 0.

Simply to state that change always brings opportunities adds nothing. Opportunities for whom, and to do what? When in business or anywhere else do you take a course of action because somebody says "Go on, do it, it'll be good I promise you." Do you not ask for proof and do a careful analysis? Most likely outcome is that it will be ok for the haves and the same shit for the have-nots.

This is, of course, addressing mostly the money side of things. We have lost our place and our role in the European project - that will not be replaced.

spouse of scouse

Thanks for this post LiW, a much needed counter-argument to the idea that anyone and everyone, no matter what their circumstances, has the same opportunity to secure a decent education, livelihood and life - all they have to do is stop being so lazy, or useless, or busy.

morpeth

I think you present a definite possibility that big business may put pressure on the government to open the doors to more immigrants/migrants from outside the EU- I can just imagine that those Brexit voters who believed Brexit would reduce the number of immigrants, and some specifically non EU migrants, will react to that. I do think that ending FOM does have the potential to help in a few low income sectors- but I think it is scarcely believable ( at least in the Northeast) that people who are on benefits or low wage occupations will have enough money to move, the desire to do some jobs immigrants do- and even they do, those employers wil have to pay significantly more not just wages, but dealing with the work habits and demands of British employees.

Lion in Winter

It's very Victorian.

I was talking with a branch of my charity near your old stomping grounds - St Helens, Wirral. The levels of long-term deprivation in the area are astounding for a wealthy, developed country.

This give a hint at it for the whole area.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...iving-16281046

I wonder what "opportunities" brexit will bring them.

Lion in Winter

The number of non-EU immigrants has already soared, so even if one assumes (fairly big assumption) that the law of supply and demand would be allowed to operate unfettered even without them, there is more than enough labour to go around and it's not shrinking.

"From May 2020."Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says.

Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics...ed%20in%201975.

And immigrants or not, none of that would address the multi-faceted and deep-seated problems now embedded in so many communities in the UK. What will brexit accomplish here? Nothing.

spouse of scouse

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Brexit thing has passed by unnoticed for most people living in poverty - a few more pressing things to think about.

A reversal of austerity measures would go some way to help (although isn't the whole answer). Local council budgets cut by 40%, libraries, sports clubs, youth clubs closed, Sure Start gutted, school budgets losing 8% of their funding, services that teachers relied on to help their most vulnerable pupils gone, a minimum of 5 weeks (often more) delay before Universal Credit is paid, a two child cap on child benefit, zero hours contracts - I could go on but you know what I mean better than anyone.

dave_j

The general tenor of this, and many other posts, suggesting that I'm heartless etc. requires a comment.
For most, the advent of brexit will mean very little. Their lives won't be affected much at all and their lives in the UK will carry on much as if little had happened, other than the immediate covid challenge of course.
My comments were intended for posters here, on this site, those who see nothing but gloom ahead.
You posters aren't typical, most have decided to up roots and go to live elsewhere. Most will be familiar with everyday overseas travel, overseas work and the challenges that these present. It's to these posters who complain at every opportunity about the inconveniences that brexit brings, it was to these posters that I was directing my post.
If anyone should see opportunities that brexit generates it should be you, but apparently rather than seek them out and exploit them you're content to sit back and hark back to the days when times were different.
Well times have changed, things are different so make the most of it, you have the experience that gives you a good start, exploit it because without doubt others will.

Lion in Winter

70% average national cut in youth services within the last decade. Much higher in some places.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-than-a-decade

That's youth clubs, mental health support, employment readiness, support for children in care, mentoring for kids, alternative education, a safe place to go when your street isn't, and more.

What outcome did anyone expect? Will these people be ready to enter investment banking or international trade?

KJMW

An excellent post; Unfortunately you won't change their views. They lost the referendum and will forever remain bitter.

Lion in Winter

I don't suppose you are heartless, but I suspect that your comments regarding people being lazy and feckless were not only meant for BE posters, most of whom are now reasonably comfortable by and large.

Most posters who dislike brexit have discussed not personal inconvenience but the effects on the country as a whole. Many pro brexit points of view have insisted that both the country and its people will benefit. Additionally, it was said that low wage people will benefit. When asked how, specifics are noticeably lacking. I would suggest that it's incumbent on the fans of brexit to explain exactly who will benefit and how. So far, there's nothing - we are just told to stop complaining.

BristolUK

So essentially, the poor and most other people won't see any difference. And those that will see change will be those taking advantage of the opportunities.

I think that's what most of the posters you disagree with have been saying yet you apparently agree.

KJMW

What a load of drivel in reply to an intelligent post.

DaveLovesDee

I spent more time at school in the early 80's learning about the wonderful places I could go if I joined the British Army than I did learning about the EEC. I suspect little change in those respects after we joined the EU in 1992.


Now you get it.... It's been pointed out a number of times over the last four and a half years that many of those who who voted Leave had very little direct interaction with EU rules, and where they did, weren't aware that the EU was involved.... And these people will see no benefit from Brexit either, by they were the ones most easily manipulated.

Yeah, but you didn't have to post that....