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Brexit changes

Brexit changes

Old Apr 22nd 2021, 10:16 pm
  #2881  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy View Post
I couldn't have put it better myself...
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Old Apr 22nd 2021, 10:34 pm
  #2882  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy View Post

It's a fair cop.
But society is to blame.
Fair enough, we'll be arresting him too.
(from memory)

At least it's Canada so the cop isn't likely to shoot.
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Old Apr 22nd 2021, 10:43 pm
  #2883  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
I couldn't have put it better myself...


Lynn R's original post mentions that things are indeed changing, as they should be.

Originally Posted by Lynn R View Post
Reports are emerging via social media of UK residents in Spain being fined by police for driving on UK licences when they should have been exchanged for Spanish ones, or driving UK-plated cars when they should have been re-registered in Spain. I think people will be realising that they will find it harder to get away with things that have largely gone unchallenged for years, and their delusion that "nothing will change as the Spanish need our money too much" was just wishful thinking.
which is very much related to Brexit.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 6:35 am
  #2884  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Sorry I couldn't answer sooner. Firstly, I would like to point out that I am a foreigner in Spain as you would be in Italy or Finland. Pre- Brexit, Brits wanting to live in Spain would, legally, have had to go through certain procedures before legalising their stay. I realise it is now harder but who in their right mind would want to live in another country if they did not have the necessary funds to do so? I know from years ago that long-term Brits driving a UK registered car in Spain has always been on the wrong side of the law. Think MOTs and car tax. This is nothing new. If I opened a legal business in Spain and employed local Spanish people and complied with the law, what is the problem? I wouldn't open an iffy business in Spain anyway. Tell you the truth, I would never go back to Spain to live. It is dump to do anything in.

As for the EU not being my home, I drink to that. But we are all foreigners outside of our national country, even you. So stop pretending you are all one big happy club. You, too, are a foreigner in Spain. Being in the EU does not make you all as one re citizenship.
You still don't get it how we feel about the EU and what are rights are. But if it makes you happy keep thinking you are a foreigner. I only wish that this comes with a humble and grateful feeling that guests have knowning that that they are not part and have to leave again.

Last edited by Assanah; Apr 23rd 2021 at 6:37 am.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 6:48 am
  #2885  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Realists take people as they find them.

I don't anticipate natural born canadians to view me through rose tinted glasses and there are many ways that they'll recognise me as being a foreigner.

I'm sure in the privacy of their homes I'm not described as being canadian in much the same way that you're not thought of as being spanish.

It's understanding how things are that's important not imagining how you'd like them to be.
Well, that's my point. You're seeing it from the perspective that people are either this or that... either Canadian or not.. It's like a badge. but not everyone sees it your way. Many do though.

I don't firstly see myself (or others) as Canadian (or not), or German or Spanish or English or anything else. I'm rather free of those constraints and the resulting tribalism.

And yes, I'm well aware that not everyone sees it this way. But they ought to try it. It's rather liberating.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 7:11 am
  #2886  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Well, that's my point. You're seeing it from the perspective that people are either this or that... either Canadian or not.. It's like a badge. but not everyone sees it your way. Many do though.
I don't firstly see myself (or others) as Canadian (or not), or German or Spanish or English or anything else. I'm rather free of those constraints and the resulting tribalism.
And yes, I'm well aware that not everyone sees it this way. But they ought to try it. It's rather liberating.
Apologies in advance for this off topic reply.

I think that your view is how you'd like it to be, how you'd like to move from country to country having no emotional ties to any, a true internationalist free spirit.

You may see yourself as free of nationalistic constraints but you still choose which passport to use at airports, which health system to log into when entering that country. What you don't do is behave in the real world as one as free of national ties as you state you'd like to be.

What you describe is an ideal and one that you're content to betray when it suits.

I'm afraid you're a square peg in a world full of round holes, but a peg whose busy whittling the square corners away to make sure there's a hole that'll accept you somewhere and apparently there's one in Majorca.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 7:17 am
  #2887  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Assanah View Post
You still don't get it how we feel about the EU and what are rights are. But if it makes you happy keep thinking you are a foreigner. I only wish that this comes with a humble and grateful feeling that guests have knowning that that they are not part and have to leave again.
I see a lot of posts from people who refer to themselves as "guests" in their country of residence, even when they've made what's intended to be a permanent move.

I wonder if it's a British trait. It's a bit of a strange one, wherever it comes from.

Just an observation and absolutely nothing directly to do with Brexit (although I suspect it might have a bearing on attitudes to immigration in the UK, and therefore possibly an indirect connection).
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 7:32 am
  #2888  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I see a lot of posts from people who refer to themselves as "guests" in their country of residence, even when they've made what's intended to be a permanent move.

I wonder if it's a British trait. It's a bit of a strange one, wherever it comes from.

Just an observation and absolutely nothing directly to do with Brexit (although I suspect it might have a bearing on attitudes to immigration in the UK, and therefore possibly an indirect connection).
I considered myself an uninvited guest when I first arrived in Hungary - until I registered (on day 60) and went into the "system". Now I pay Hungarian taxes, obey Hungarian laws, do Hungarian "things", and am treated as a Hungarian. Yes, I am still legally a British citizen, for another 2 years but that's just an unfortunate legacy issue!
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 8:16 am
  #2889  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I see a lot of posts from people who refer to themselves as "guests" in their country of residence, even when they've made what's intended to be a permanent move.

I wonder if it's a British trait. It's a bit of a strange one, wherever it comes from.

Just an observation and absolutely nothing directly to do with Brexit (although I suspect it might have a bearing on attitudes to immigration in the UK, and therefore possibly an indirect connection).

I find these posts ironic! As previously posters have commented on my posts regarding my other country----'you are what you are ---born and bred', you're 'trying to integrate' (into your own family!)
I suppose EU member countries counted as 'home' but not any other of those 'foreign' places! As you said immigration to the UK--- FOM from EU countries OK, anywhere else---not OK.

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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 8:19 am
  #2890  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Apologies in advance for this off topic reply.

I think that your view is how you'd like it to be, how you'd like to move from country to country having no emotional ties to any, a true internationalist free spirit.

You may see yourself as free of nationalistic constraints but you still choose which passport to use at airports, which health system to log into when entering that country. What you don't do is behave in the real world as one as free of national ties as you state you'd like to be.

What you describe is an ideal and one that you're content to betray when it suits.

I'm afraid you're a square peg in a world full of round holes, but a peg whose busy whittling the square corners away to make sure there's a hole that'll accept you somewhere and apparently there's one in Majorca.
One must have a passport. That doesn't make you a nationalist. I was born in England. I have a British passport, but I have no particular nationalist sentiment to England.

I also have a German passport. That doesn't mean I'm a German nationalist. Germany has its good and bad, like anywhere else. It was a practical decision to obtain German citizenship, and as it turns out, was a very good move.

I now live in Spain. That doesn't make me a Spanish nationalist. I just like it here.

But OK, in a technical sense, I'm a "foreigner" just like every other person on this planet. Obviously, that's not what differentiates me from everybody else, but it's an important differentiator in many people's minds, although because technically, we're all "foreigners", it doesn't really differentiate us at all. But then, you have to adopt a broader perspective in order to see that. Rather difficult if your lens draws a line between you and "them".

The lines you're drawing presume that everyone *must* see it like you do. And that's a testament to your insularity.

​​​​​​​I know a bloke, "Keith", who's convinced that driving on the left is the only "natural" way to drive. And can't imagine why "foreigners" don't get it (and explains why foreigners are crap drivers). Obviously it's ridiculous nationalist tosh, but that's what insularity does for you.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 8:40 am
  #2891  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Feeling at home in a foreign country is quite natural. It is how the citizens of that country see you and that is as a foreigner.
I'm afraid this says more about how you see foreigners than how foreigners see you.
I'm like Ami ... I don't "feel" any nationality.


Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Realists take people as they find them.

I don't anticipate natural born canadians to view me through rose tinted glasses and there are many ways that they'll recognise me as being a foreigner.

I'm sure in the privacy of their homes I'm not described as being canadian in much the same way that you're not thought of as being spanish.

It's understanding how things are that's important not imagining how you'd like them to be.
Same as above ... This says more about you etc.
I'm sure in the privacy of homes, one doesn't describe one neighbour as "The Canadian from no 10" or "The Englishman from no 12".
People tend to use names instead of nationalities.

As Red Eric said :
Just an observation and absolutely nothing directly to do with Brexit (although I suspect it might have a bearing on attitudes to immigration in the UK, and therefore possibly an indirect connection).



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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 9:17 am
  #2892  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
Feeling at home in a foreign country is quite natural. It is how the citizens of that country see you and that is as a foreigner.
That depends.

If you adopt the ways of that country (first and foremost of course by learning its language) and its values, you may find that their attitudes change. If it becomes clear that your new home has become just that, your home, people notice. If you settle down, marry a local, buy a house, send your children to the local school and not some English-language school for "ex-pat" children and become treasurer of the local cat-fancier's association, people notice. If you attach importance to being a good neighbour, not to score brownie points for your citizenship application, but because it's the natural thing to do in the place that is your home, people notice. If you make it clear that you take the responsibilities of your new citizenship seriously, and not just the rights, people notice.

Eventually, you begin hearing comments that indicate that people see you, not necessarily as a [insert new nationality], but, and perhaps even more importantly, as one of them, as "as much a [insert new nationality] as we are".

There is some truth in Norman Tebbit's "cricket test" comment here, although whether you support the English or the Pakistani cricket team is not the point. It's whether people acknowledge that you have chosen to have a stake in the country, region or village. There's also some truth in Theresa May's "citizens of nowhere" comment, but the issue there isn't really that of citizenship, but of commitment.

In 1935, the Nazis stripped Jews of their German citizenship, although their families had lived there for centuries; many had fought for Germany a mere 17 years previously. The fact that the Nazis could do this wasn't because it's possible to switch citizenship on and off like a light switch. It was because the Germans had, collectively, never come to regard the Jews as being part of their nation, and were therefore largely indifferent to them. The individual Jew wasn't "one of us".

This has changed to a significant extent, and it didn't change with enactment of the German citizenship law that states that anyone with German citizenship is, by definition, German. It has been a gradual process and it isn't yet over. It is part of a wider process of not regarding citizenship as the bureaucracy of ethnic tribalism.

Originally Posted by la mancha View Post
But we are all foreigners outside of our national country, even you. So stop pretending you are all one big happy club. You, too, are a foreigner in Spain. Being in the EU does not make you all as one re citizenship.
There is no such thing as "our national country". It's just a dog-whistle phrase that panders to the attitude that Boris Johnson and Prince Philip are quintessentially British, but a Black woman who has lived in the UK since she was seven and has worked for 40 years as a cleaner should be put on the next plane back to Jamaica because she's mislaid her national insurance records.

No one in the EU is pretending that the EU is "all one big happy club". But we share a citizenship, whether you like it or not, and there is a feeling of common European identity shared by many, again, whether you like it or not. The United Kingdom is hardly one "big happy club" either, with two of its four constituent nations within shouting distance of secession. But whilst I would be quite happy to see the UK broken up into its constituent nations, I perfectly respect anyone's right to identify as "British", and with all due respect, I think you can be expected to do the same with respect to "our" union.
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 10:18 am
  #2893  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
That depends.

If you adopt the ways of that country (first and foremost of course by learning its language) and its values, you may find that their attitudes change. If it becomes clear that your new home has become just that, your home, people notice. If you settle down, marry a local, buy a house, send your children to the local school and not some English-language school for "ex-pat" children and become treasurer of the local cat-fancier's association, people notice. If you attach importance to being a good neighbour, not to score brownie points for your citizenship application, but because it's the natural thing to do in the place that is your home, people notice. If you make it clear that you take the responsibilities of your new citizenship seriously, and not just the rights, people notice.

Eventually, you begin hearing comments that indicate that people see you, not necessarily as a [insert new nationality], but, and perhaps even more importantly, as one of them, as "as much a [insert new nationality] as we are".

There is some truth in Norman Tebbit's "cricket test" comment here, although whether you support the English or the Pakistani cricket team is not the point. It's whether people acknowledge that you have chosen to have a stake in the country, region or village. There's also some truth in Theresa May's "citizens of nowhere" comment, but the issue there isn't really that of citizenship, but of commitment.

In 1935, the Nazis stripped Jews of their German citizenship, although their families had lived there for centuries; many had fought for Germany a mere 17 years previously. The fact that the Nazis could do this wasn't because it's possible to switch citizenship on and off like a light switch. It was because the Germans had, collectively, never come to regard the Jews as being part of their nation, and were therefore largely indifferent to them. The individual Jew wasn't "one of us".

This has changed to a significant extent, and it didn't change with enactment of the German citizenship law that states that anyone with German citizenship is, by definition, German. It has been a gradual process and it isn't yet over. It is part of a wider process of not regarding citizenship as the bureaucracy of ethnic tribalism.



There is no such thing as "our national country". It's just a dog-whistle phrase that panders to the attitude that Boris Johnson and Prince Philip are quintessentially British, but a Black woman who has lived in the UK since she was seven and has worked for 40 years as a cleaner should be put on the next plane back to Jamaica because she's mislaid her national insurance records.

No one in the EU is pretending that the EU is "all one big happy club". But we share a citizenship, whether you like it or not, and there is a feeling of common European identity shared by many, again, whether you like it or not. The United Kingdom is hardly one "big happy club" either, with two of its four constituent nations within shouting distance of secession. But whilst I would be quite happy to see the UK broken up into its constituent nations, I perfectly respect anyone's right to identify as "British", and with all due respect, I think you can be expected to do the same with respect to "our" union.

Agree with most of your post----but what about that 'awful' phrase that I have heard frequently in the UK ----"Oh-- he's OK --he's very 'westernised'!

It is possible to 'belong'---in more than one place----just as you love --more than one child! (Support which ever cricket team is winning!)





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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 11:27 am
  #2894  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I find these posts ironic!
Which - mine, or those I was referring to?

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
I suppose EU member countries counted as 'home' but not any other of those 'foreign' places!
I didn't make any distinction between EU and others - it was a general observation.

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
As you said immigration to the UK--- FOM from EU countries OK, anywhere else---not OK.
You must be confusing me with someone else.

I have never said anything of the sort and nor would I.

What, incidentally, is your opinion of the way the UK government is now using the term "freedom of movement" in relation to the impending trade agreement with Australia and (as far as I know, unless you can point me in the direction of a quote from a member of the government) its complete absence from references to arrangements with India? Do you think it's a bit odd that they're trying to reinvent the term, after having stirred up so much shit over it in the past? And why apply the new Global Britain usage to one country but not another? What do you think they're up to there?
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Old Apr 23rd 2021, 1:10 pm
  #2895  
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Default Re: Brexit changes

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
You must be confusing me with someone else.
She is - me (& others, possibly). I have said that previously. Just as FOM is OK between the 4 regions of the UK, or the states of India, or the US, so, in my opinion, is FOM OK between the states of the EU. FOM between the UK and a whole world of 7 billion plus is clearly impractical.

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