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The Black Lives Matter movement

The Black Lives Matter movement

Old Jan 9th 2022, 11:46 pm
  #1306  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
​​​​​​That's a valid point in regard to the BLM movement in general, but I think certain cases like Floyd and Arbery can be instructive as to the deep flaws within the American system. In both those cases the manner of the murder was truly grotesque (as opposed to a robbery gone wrong or gang violence). In that regard I think it's worthwhile for the media to highlight such individual cases.
Eh, maybe. I think the idea that there are "deep flaws" in the US justice system is questionable. It's not perfect (no country's legal system is perfect) but I don't agree that it's "deeply flawed". That's an opinion, like yours.

Also, while I certainly agree that "the manner of this murder was truly grotesque", it's the awful truth that there are truly brutal and pointless crimes every day in the US. If you haven't, watch some murder sentencing hearings some day on YouTube to get a sense for just how stupid, wasteful and depraved many, many murders are in the US. It makes you despair. Very few of those cases even make the news, let alone front page news for literally years like the Aubrey case. I believe the Aubrey case exploded because this particular case of a young black man out for a jog set upon and killed by fat white men with goatees in a pickup fits into a chosen narrative neatly. The avalanche of other crimes that don't fit into that narrative suspiciously don't get coverage. I believe this distorts peoples' opinions on the reality of the situation and that's what drove my initial point.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 12:04 am
  #1307  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
BLM was founded to confront police violence - including murder - against black people. As such the focus on such killings is absolutely right. As for Arbery, it isn’t just that he was murdered but the barrel full of racism that accompanied it.
Aubrey wasn't killed by the police, so I'm not sure I follow your reasoning there.

Setting that aside, I agree that (perceived? proven?) racism this is the reason why this case went viral. This is actually my point. Is there a reason why we need to focus on white people shooting black people as if that's the problem we need to solve first? Where is the evidence that there is an epidemic of racially-motivated hate crime of white people on black people in the US? Again, I believe this is distorting reality to fit a political point. Again, just my opinion.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 2:25 am
  #1308  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Aubrey wasn't killed by the police, so I'm not sure I follow your reasoning there.
I didn’t see he was murdered by the police did I? Reasoning is pre try obvious - he was murdered and there was a whole lot of racism thrown in with it.

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Setting that aside, I agree that (perceived? proven?) racism this is the reason why this case went viral. This is actually my point. Is there a reason why we need to focus on white people shooting black people as if that's the problem we need to solve first? Where is the evidence that there is an epidemic of racially-motivated hate crime of white people on black people in the US? Again, I believe this is distorting reality to fit a political point. Again, just my opinion.
You really don’t think there’s a significant problem with racially motivated animus by white people - including the police - on black people?
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 11:30 am
  #1309  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
I'd like to see this evidence. Also, normalizing across all of the situations that can result in a murder to make them comparable is extremely difficult if not impossible.
Here's a quick search.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 1:15 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
The one-sidedness of the posting here needs some context. People are sadly murdered every day in the US and the fixation on this case seems politically motivated. The blanket coverage of the Aubery case is verging on distorting reality. In 2018, 514 white people were killed by black people. 234 black people were killed by white people. Given that 58% of Americans are white and about 12% of Americans are black, normalizing for population size makes this disparity grow even more dramatically. I'd never say that there's an "epidemic of black on white murder in the US", and clearly the idea that there's some sort of epidemic of white on black violence is even more absurd.
You just quoted figures that show that white people kill proportionally three times as many black people than vice versa when adjusted for population.

Originally Posted by Hiro11
Aubrey wasn't killed by the police, so I'm not sure I follow your reasoning there.
The police didn't even investigate the murder, they just took the murderer's words as fact and let it go. The problem is that the murders of black people are taken less seriously than white people, across the board.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 4:53 pm
  #1311  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Eh, maybe. I think the idea that there are "deep flaws" in the US justice system is questionable. It's not perfect (no country's legal system is perfect) but I don't agree that it's "deeply flawed". That's an opinion, like yours.

Also, while I certainly agree that "the manner of this murder was truly grotesque", it's the awful truth that there are truly brutal and pointless crimes every day in the US. If you haven't, watch some murder sentencing hearings some day on YouTube to get a sense for just how stupid, wasteful and depraved many, many murders are in the US. It makes you despair. Very few of those cases even make the news, let alone front page news for literally years like the Aubrey case. I believe the Aubrey case exploded because this particular case of a young black man out for a jog set upon and killed by fat white men with goatees in a pickup fits into a chosen narrative neatly. The avalanche of other crimes that don't fit into that narrative suspiciously don't get coverage. I believe this distorts peoples' opinions on the reality of the situation and that's what drove my initial point.
Say BLM never happened, it likely that the Arbery case would still become national news simply because of its grotesque nature and available video. It's pretty much a modern day lynching.

I understand your general point about reporting and distortion.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 5:52 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Anian View Post
You just quoted figures that show that white people kill proportionally three times as many black people than vice versa when adjusted for population.
Might want to check your math there.


The police didn't even investigate the murder, they just took the murderer's words as fact and let it go. The problem is that the murders of black people are taken less seriously than white people, across the board.
Evidence that this is true?
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 5:58 pm
  #1313  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
I didn’t see he was murdered by the police did I? Reasoning is pre try obvious - he was murdered and there was a whole lot of racism thrown in with it.
You started off talking about how "BLM was founded to confront police violence against black people". I was questioning what that had to do with a case that didn't involve any police violence. This likewise seems "obvious" to me.



You really don’t think there’s a significant problem with racially motivated animus by white people - including the police - on black people?
This is a straw man and a distortion of anything I've said. I'm not sure what you mean by "animus", but I think the idea that there's an huge problem with racist whites attacking blacks is absurd.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 7:50 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Evidence that this is true?
It was widely published in the media.

Initial Police Report

A Disturbing Timeline Of Ahmaud Arbery’s Killing And Murder Investigation In Georgia

the McMichaels were arrested and charged with murder more than two months after Arbery was killed. It would take another two weeks before Bryan, the man who filmed the shooting, would meet the same fate and be taken into custody and also be charged with felony murder along with criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 8:38 pm
  #1315  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post


Evidence that this is true?
It all came out in the trial.
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 4:57 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
The one-sidedness of the posting here needs some context. People are sadly murdered every day in the US and the fixation on this case seems politically motivated. The blanket coverage of the Aubery case is verging on distorting reality.
What do you mean one-sidedness? People in this thread (just a few) noted the recent verdict and agreed with it. Nothing said here was half as strong as what the judge said himself. Even you, later in this post, state the murder was tragic and outrageous. I don't understand the need to assign people roles that they didn't sign up for. If you have an argument or opinion, just say it, you don't have to malign other posters first if your argument is sound.

Blanket coverage? Arbery was murder two years ago. Are you saying the nation has been fixated on this case for the past two years to the point of distorting reality? It seems that the trial itself has been well covered for a couple of months. Interestingly, that couple of months is around the same amount time, immediately after the murder, that there was no national coverage at all because there wasn't even an investigation.


In 2018, 514 white people were killed by black people. 234 black people were killed by white people. Given that 58% of Americans are white and about 12% of Americans are black, normalizing for population size makes this disparity grow even more dramatically. I'd never say that there's an "epidemic of black on white murder in the US", and clearly the idea that there's some sort of epidemic of white on black violence is even more absurd. Likewise, over 10x the number of black people killed by white people were killed by other black people. That likewise seems relevant.

Source for this: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-6.xls
So, any time we want to talk about the murder of a black person, you prefer for us to quickly point out that other black people, who are completely unrelated to the situation, have done plenty of bad things themselves? Is there any particular reason this is necessary?

The Aubery case is tragic and his murder was outrageous. Justice has been served. Still, tragically it's a fact that pointless, horrific murder happens daily in the US. In that regard, this blanket coverage and "say his name" obsession seems like a political view, not a reflection of reality.
That's your opinion. You can apply these requirements to yourself. You can't tell others how to react to information.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 6:22 pm
  #1317  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
It all came out in the trial.
I should have edited the quote better, my mistake.

I was responding to:
"The problem is that the murders of black people are taken less seriously than white people, across the board."
I'd like to see evidence that this is true.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 6:45 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
What do you mean one-sidedness? People in this thread (just a few) noted the recent verdict and agreed with it. Nothing said here was half as strong as what the judge said himself.
This thread went far beyond this case and started to discuss systemic racism, the "deeply flawed" American justice system, the racism of white Americans etc.
Even you, later in this post, state the murder was tragic and outrageous.
Yes, I did. And I mean it.
I don't understand the need to assign people roles that they didn't sign up for.
Oh come on, I didn't do this at all. I object to that. In fact, quite the opposite has happened. I refer you to the various straw men that have been created here exaggerating what I actually said to a ridiculous and easily attacked degree if you'd like to see examples of people "assigning" me "roles".
If you have an argument or opinion, just say it, you don't have to malign other posters first if your argument is sound.
I DID make an argument, which neither you nor most others (with the possible exception of Shard) actually took the time to read and respond to.

I'll repeat it just so it's clear:
I believe the Aubrey case has received disproportionate coverage compared to other murders precisely because it was a case of fat white guys with goatees killing an unarmed young black man.
I believe that has happened because the case resonates with broader themes of white racism and violence against black people (others here have made this same point).
I believe that violent white racism, while abhorrent, is NOT a major cause of death among young black men, an opinion backed up by readily available and compelling statistics. I also believe that black racism against white people is similarly not a major cause of death among white people, even though the statistics actually back that up more than the reverse.
For all of the above, I perceive cherry-picked focus on this particular case to the exclusion of others because it fits into the narrative of the dangers of white racism. I believe the single-minded coverage of and focus on this case is distorting the reality of the situation.

Blanket coverage? Arbery was murder two years ago. Are you saying the nation has been fixated on this case for the past two years to the point of distorting reality?
Yes. It has been front page news nation wide. There has been much, much more coverage of this case than the vast majority of other murders that have occurred since. This seems self-evident to me.
It seems that the trial itself has been well covered for a couple of months.
I respectfully disagree with this characterization. This case has been national news since it happened.
Interestingly, that couple of months is around the same amount time, immediately after the murder, that there was no national coverage at all because there wasn't even an investigation.
True, but in fairness given that there wasn't an investigation there wasn't much to report.


So, any time we want to talk about the murder of a black person, you prefer for us to quickly point out that other black people, who are completely unrelated to the situation, have done plenty of bad things themselves? Is there any particular reason this is necessary?
This is yet another obvious straw man. Yet another "role you've assigned me to play" to use your words.

Last edited by Hiro11; Jan 14th 2022 at 6:50 pm.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 8:48 pm
  #1319  
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
This case has been national news since it happened.
The case was barely known anywhere for the first three months. It wasn't until footage of him being murdered was released publicly that it became known, and partly due to the clear injustice of it all.
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Old Jan 14th 2022, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: The Black Lives Matter movement

Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
I should have edited the quote better, my mistake.

I was responding to:
"The problem is that the murders of black people are taken less seriously than white people, across the board."
I'd like to see evidence that this is true.
It's not just murders - white people who disappear are given way more press coverage than black or brown people. Remember last summer? I am thinking back to the Gabby Petito case - it was all over the news and went on for days and days - probably because she was young, white and pretty. Black and brown people just don't get the same coverage - no matter what happens to them. You cannot deny that - it's a fact!
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