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Big population drop and change coming

Big population drop and change coming

Old Jul 20th 2020, 10:14 am
  #61  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
They're not arranged as such but because everything is first and foremost about a) money and b) family, it isn't uncommon for a family to kill off an engagement or a relationship, even when the couple are very happy together.

The state looks after nobody but itself in China. It's a communist country in name only and all citizens need to fund their own lives and wellbeing entirely. The social safety nets that exist in places like Vietnam, Cuba and even parts of the west do not exist in China. The elderly are looked after by they families or from their own savings and the Chinese government have ways of "dealing with" the infirm, disabled, or the elderly who lack the required financial resources.

The Chinese government can absolutely prevent or invalidate a marriage if they disapprove of it. They were bothered about the Coronavirus for the same reason they're ever bothered by anything; money.
I find that hard to believe. Although it's now a largely capitalist country, it can't have gone from full communism to zero safety net, that does not make sense.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 10:19 am
  #62  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I find that hard to believe. Although it's now a largely capitalist country, it can't have gone from full communism to zero safety net, that does not make sense.
Look it up if you like. It is absolutely true though. It was never communist in the true sense of the word. Communism was just used an excuse for Mao forming an authoritarian empire.

There is no free or universal healthcare in China for example. In the cities people use insurance programs, some state owned and some private (although those are pretty much one and the same thing in China) and in the countryside healthcare isn't really a thing because most people essentially live in their own shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China

All the post-Mao loosening up did was enable private enterprise and improved business relationships with the outside world. Communism as a Cuban, Russian or even North Korean would understand it has never existed under the Chinese model.

Last edited by DigitalGhost; Jul 20th 2020 at 10:24 am.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 10:44 am
  #63  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Look it up if you like. It is absolutely true though. It was never communist in the true sense of the word. Communism was just used an excuse for Mao forming an authoritarian empire.

There is no free or universal healthcare in China for example. In the cities people use insurance programs, some state owned and some private (although those are pretty much one and the same thing in China) and in the countryside healthcare isn't really a thing because most people essentially live in their own shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China

All the post-Mao loosening up did was enable private enterprise and improved business relationships with the outside world. Communism as a Cuban, Russian or even North Korean would understand it has never existed under the Chinese model.
I know there was/is poverty rural China, but elsewhere everyone was employed by the state (whether it was meaningful work or not) and through that received healthcare, housing and other quasi welfare.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 10:50 am
  #64  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I know there was/is poverty rural China, but elsewhere everyone was employed by the state (whether it was meaningful work or not) and through that received healthcare, housing and other quasi welfare.
No that's not how it works. Everything is controlled by the state in some way or another however they've done a very good job at making it look like private enterprise. I don't think there's any parallel for it in history tbh but it's certainly not like Cuba where everyone gets the same salary regardless of what they do and everyone is guaranteed a certain standard of living by the state. In China if you don't work then you don't eat and if you can't pay for your medical bills then don't expect care.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 11:42 am
  #65  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Look it up if you like. It is absolutely true though. It was never communist in the true sense of the word. Communism was just used an excuse for Mao forming an authoritarian empire.

There is no free or universal healthcare in China for example. In the cities people use insurance programs, some state owned and some private (although those are pretty much one and the same thing in China) and in the countryside healthcare isn't really a thing because most people essentially live in their own shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China

All the post-Mao loosening up did was enable private enterprise and improved business relationships with the outside world. Communism as a Cuban, Russian or even North Korean would understand it has never existed under the Chinese model.
"because most people essentially live in their own shit."

I snorted and the mouthful of water went half up my nose giving that horrid sensation and the other half hit the back of the throat and made me cough, really loudly and repeatedly in a semi-busy office. Everyone must assume I'm Captain Corona now.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 11:51 am
  #66  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
"because most people essentially live in their own shit."

I snorted and the mouthful of water went half up my nose giving that horrid sensation and the other half hit the back of the throat and made me cough, really loudly and repeatedly in a semi-busy office. Everyone must assume I'm Captain Corona now.
It was the living in their own shit thing that did it, wasn't it.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 2:48 pm
  #67  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
Look it up if you like. It is absolutely true though. It was never communist in the true sense of the word. Communism was just used an excuse for Mao forming an authoritarian empire.

There is no free or universal healthcare in China for example. In the cities people use insurance programs, some state owned and some private (although those are pretty much one and the same thing in China) and in the countryside healthcare isn't really a thing because most people essentially live in their own shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_China

All the post-Mao loosening up did was enable private enterprise and improved business relationships with the outside world. Communism as a Cuban, Russian or even North Korean would understand it has never existed under the Chinese model.
For once, something I agree with.... Nobody has a patent on the word "Communist" and regimes apply it as they wish, or it is applied to them by others, it does not signify that all such regimes use the same playbook. Lenin initially corrupted the Marxist ideology because it was not designed for a country that had never evolved beyond autocracy and was largely a peasant economy. Stalin took it further and developed a cult of personality. As early as the Spanish Civil War, there were fundamental arguments on the Republican side between the Marxists and the Moscow-backed Communist party..... and no great trust either, which is one reason why Franco was able to win. Mao took the Leninist ideas to organize and unify China, but then heavily adapted them to suit local conditions -and he also developed the cult of personality over time. As Stalinism and Maoism evolved, they diverged greatly from each other (So in most Western countries there were distinct groups who either looked to Moscow or Beijing for inspiration.... and others who rejected both). Other so-called communist states tended to derive influence from whoever supported them... but equally developed to suit local requirements... and usually as state autocracies. The one principle common to all was that it was a one-party system where no opposition was tolerated - usually because there was an initial need to change the mindset and prevent "corruption" by other actors, but later as a self-serving process, dominated by the thoughts of the head honcho. This is why there are sometinmes surprising similarities between fascist and "communist" regimes once they become embedded.

More specific to China, when I first encountered Huawei, 20 years ago, I worked closely with one of their "managers". The designer/engineers would happily discuss requirements and excitedly put forward ideas... like clever hamsters. The "managers" were divided between business managers and man managers (Huawei also employed some British managers but I never really dealt with them). The business managers were well educated, spoke very good English, were super bright and mostly women... the "others" who were in charge of the engineers, were mostly male, taller than their "staff", ramrod straight and spoke with authority (no guessing their background). However, one of them was my direct contact.... and was surprisingly friendly, once he dropped his guard - probably because there was no friction between our roles. At one time he went back to Schenzen for a meeting and "holiday". When he came back, we spoke about his trip and he said he had decided to visit his parents in the North of China, as he hadn't seen them for 3 years. His father was now ill, so he wanted to ensure his father's healthcare was in order, because he was retired and had none through his employer. Huawei gave him 5 days leave, and he spent 2 days getting home on the train, spent one day with his parents and then had to travel back! As I've posted before, I asked why he didn't fly home and he just said "Flying is not for people like us". I also learned that he got no extra payment for working abroad.... instead, he shared basic accommodation with other colleagues and had food provided by the company - but the cost was subtracted from his normal pay - and actually meant he was worse off than in China! He.wasn't bitching, that was the way things were and he knew no different, but it certainly made "employment" sound very different to the UK and demonstrated the difference in our mindset and learned experiences...... and expectations of life.

Last edited by macliam; Jul 20th 2020 at 2:50 pm.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 3:26 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I also learned that he got no extra payment for working abroad.... instead, he shared basic accommodation with other colleagues and had food provided by the company - but the cost was subtracted from his normal pay - and actually meant he was worse off than in China! He.wasn't bitching, that was the way things were and he knew no different, but it certainly made "employment" sound very different to the UK and demonstrated the difference in our mindset and learned experiences...... and expectations of life.
That kind of thing isn't unique to the Chinese. I've worked with IT professionals from India who have been brought to the west by their employers, the large outsourcing companies. Essentially they work like dogs and on shit pay back in India for a few years on the promise that their diligence will help the company secure more lucrative contracts and their hard work will be rewarded.

Finally their time to shine arrives and they're moved to the US, the UK, Canada, Europe and elsewhere on a corporate sponsored visa. The company also paid for the flight and their first night in a hotel but then they were expected to fund their own food and accommodation, even when they were on a short business trip. Obviously an Indian salary won't go far in most of the west and I worked with one guy last year who was staying in the cheapest hotel he could find which turned out to be a 4 hour round commute from the office every day. Because he had to leave at the crack of dawn to catch his first train, he missed his free hotel breakfast every day as well.

Oh and of course the visa is tied to the job as well so if they put one foot wrong or get any ideas above their station then they're out on their arse and put on the first flight back home or left to fend for themselves. I saw a forum post a couple of days ago about an Indian guy from one such firm who was moved to Montreal but then his company lost the contract 2 months into his placement. Given the choice between returning home or staying in Canada he chose the latter but had been unemployed for months at that point because no Canadian company wanted to sponsor his LMIA.

Last edited by DigitalGhost; Jul 20th 2020 at 3:29 pm.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 4:23 pm
  #69  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
No that's not how it works. Everything is controlled by the state in some way or another however they've done a very good job at making it look like private enterprise. I don't think there's any parallel for it in history tbh but it's certainly not like Cuba where everyone gets the same salary regardless of what they do and everyone is guaranteed a certain standard of living by the state. In China if you don't work then you don't eat and if you can't pay for your medical bills then don't expect care.
I didn't say everyone gets the same salary and that everyone is guaranteed a certain standard of living? Where did you get that from? In any case, I've checked with someone Chinese, in China, and she's confirmed that their is a level of welfare available to many citizens through company style national insurance payments. There's simply no logic to your assertion. China, after decades of socialism or communism, whatever collective system they pursued now looks after NO ONE? Is that some Serpentza BS or something?
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 4:27 pm
  #70  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
I didn't say everyone gets the same salary and that everyone is guaranteed a certain standard of living? Where did you get that from? In any case, I've checked with someone Chinese, in China, and she's confirmed that their is a level of welfare available to many citizens through company style national insurance payments. There's simply no logic to your assertion. China, after decades of socialism or communism, whatever collective system they pursued now looks after NO ONE? Is that some Serpentza BS or something?
No, it's the truth. What you're talking about is a company sponsored insurance program. A lot of countries in Asia and elsewhere have similar systems.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 5:01 pm
  #71  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
No, it's the truth. What you're talking about is a company sponsored insurance program. A lot of countries in Asia and elsewhere have similar systems.
... and as with the Huawei manager's father... that's sod all use to you when you've retired, or if you don't work for a company. There is welfare available for those without such insurance, but it's very basic and rationed.

Last edited by macliam; Jul 20th 2020 at 5:04 pm.
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Old Jul 20th 2020, 6:06 pm
  #72  
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Default Re: Big population drop and change coming

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
... and as with the Huawei manager's father... that's sod all use to you when you've retired, or if you don't work for a company. There is welfare available for those without such insurance, but it's very basic and rationed.
Exactly.

I'd wager it's loosely based on the programs used in Japan, HK and a few other places in Asia. Historically, you would leave uni or school and get a job for life in those countries and the plan would cover you and your family until your death and your kids reach adulthood themselves. These days jobs for life are less common like they are in the west however the plan moves with you across employers.

Obviously this version will be bastardised to meet the wishes of the Chinese government and is probably rife for abuse and corruption just like everything else in that country.
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