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The anti-woke backlash

The anti-woke backlash

Old Jan 30th 2020, 12:28 pm
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Default The anti-woke backlash

I thought this was an interesting piece. It's something we've seen in Brexit and Trump threads.

You still don't get it. It's no good insulting the voters. The opposition need better candidates.

The ‘anti-woke’ backlash is no joke – and progressives are going to lose if they don’t wise up
The social liberalism of the 90s is crumbling, and the people who hated it all along are finding their voice again...The progressive tendency to regard “anti-woke” crusaders as aberrations is a hangover from the liberal consensus established in the late 90s....But as the tide of 90s social liberalism has ebbed, it has also revealed another group of people (primarily older, white homeowners and pensioners) who had never bought into the consensus in the first place, and are aggressively hostile to its newer, more radical iteration. We all know a member of this demographic: alienated by the modern world and displeased by change, they are fond of complaining that “You can’t say anything any more!” – even as their opinions are widely reproduced in the nation’s print media.They are the people that have enabled Brexit and Donald Trump to succeed, and have since transformed themselves into the base of a potent political movement.
Okay, so wise up, recognise that the argument is being lost (because facts don't matter?) and decide what to do.

But no suggestions offered. Anyone have any?

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Old Jan 31st 2020, 11:24 am
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

I really wish people didn't refer to Brexit and Trump as though they were in any way the same thing.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I really wish people didn't refer to Brexit and Trump as though they were in any way the same thing.
The supporters and defenders of both ideas use identical language to describe them and identical language in describing those who oppose. They seem to have a lot in common.

Both won votes with minority support and both won on a campaign of lies and law breaking. Both lost numerous legal judgements along the way.

Both attract racist voters.

Sounds pretty similar.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 2:28 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I really wish people didn't refer to Brexit and Trump as though they were in any way the same thing.
Both happened in the same year. Both happened after we lost David Bowie, and the world has generally sucked hairy goat balls since. Coincidence?
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Populism has nothing to do with Brexit or Trump. And neither ever supported the other at all. Nope, no relationship whatsoever.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
I really wish people didn't refer to Brexit and Trump as though they were in any way the same thing.
You are never going to convince those who are deeply committed Brexit and Trump are exact parallels. They find solace in the fiction.

But there is a commonality in that elements of both votes was a protest by the overlooked. The failures of the sneering classes is their stubborn refusal to understand and acknowledge the overlooked factor, their solution is simply more welfare but no meaningful changes.

That aside, yes, I do agree we're heading for an anti-woke backlash. It's not a reaction to the concept of being progressive or liberal or tolerant, but the extremity of it. Trans right are a perfect example. It's basic biology you are the gender you are born with and just look between your legs and that's what you are. I imagine most of us will accept if it makes someone happy to believe he or she is of the opposite gender and to dress as such, but we don't understand why this must mandate full access to the identities and places of the opposite gender? Why suddenly the notions of gender have to be turned upside down and without any consultation to the broader public to pander to what's little more than a neurological condition with no biological basis is very much a case of the emperor's new clothes.

Every generation has its emperor's new clothes, when the political and cultural establishments become so blind to the ludicrousness of some of their positions due to years of having their biases unchallenged, and often think that it's the only morally right way into the future, while the broader society can see it for exactly what it is, and of course things can be done differently, and there's always the popular reaction against it. For the modern progressive left the emperor's new clothes run from trans rights to racism to immigration. Immigration is obviously the hot topic for the UK, with the Guardian establishment refusing to acknowledge any downsides and stubbornly insisting it must be an inevitable "moral" good and that the sky will fall and we'll revert to a racist third world country if we didn't have immigration. The public knows this is nonsense and that not long ago immigration used to be very tightly controlled and regulated, so it's obviously quite possible. And racism is falling into the same trap. We must always agree that all claims of racism are genuinely racism and that somehow it's different from all the other forms of discrimination. The public knows people discriminate and judge each other all the time based on appearances, clothes, accent, occupations, education, residence, none of which is fair, but somehow racism is singled out as the only worthwhile moral enemy and suddenly the vast majority of the British public are on the bad side and don't face any discrimination and all people of colour are on the good side and face discrimination in every step and we therefore live in a deeply racist society despite that Britain is one of the most tolerant societies in the world (and leaving aside the irony that most POC immigrants come from societies that are far more systematically discriminatory and oppressive....)

When the genuine realities on the street is sharply different from the imaginary world of the establishment, it's only a matter of time till there's a backlash.

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Old Jan 31st 2020, 4:33 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH View Post
You are never going to convince those who are deeply committed Brexit and Trump are exact parallels. They find solace in the fiction.

But there is a commonality in that elements of both votes was a protest by the overlooked. The failures of the sneering classes is their stubborn refusal to understand and acknowledge the overlooked factor, their solution is simply more welfare but no meaningful changes.

That aside, yes, I do agree we're heading for an anti-woke backlash. It's not a reaction to the concept of being progressive or liberal or tolerant, but the extremity of it. Trans right are a perfect example. It's basic biology you are the gender you are born with and just look between your legs and that's what you are. I imagine most of us will accept if it makes someone happy to believe he or she is of the opposite gender and to dress as such, but we don't understand why this must mandate full access to the identities and places of the opposite gender? Why suddenly the notions of gender have to be turned upside down and without any consultation to the broader public to pander to what's little more than a neurological condition with no biological basis is very much a case of the emperor's new clothes.

Every generation has its emperor's new clothes, when the political and cultural establishments become so blind to the ludicrousness of some of their positions due to years of having their biases unchallenged, and often think that it's the only morally right way into the future, while the broader society can see it for exactly what it is, and of course things can be done differently, and there's always the popular reaction against it. For the modern progressive left the emperor's new clothes run from trans rights to racism to immigration. Immigration is obviously the hot topic for the UK, with the Guardian establishment refusing to acknowledge any downsides and stubbornly insisting it must be an inevitable "moral" good and that the sky will fall and we'll revert to a racist third world country if we didn't have immigration. The public knows this is nonsense and that not long ago immigration used to be very tightly controlled and regulated, so it's obviously quite possible. And racism is falling into the same trap. We must always agree that all claims of racism are genuinely racism and that somehow it's different from all the other forms of discrimination. The public knows people discriminate and judge each other all the time based on appearances, clothes, accent, occupations, education, residence, none of which is fair, but somehow racism is singled out as the only worthwhile moral enemy and suddenly the vast majority of the British public are on the bad side and don't face any discrimination and all people of colour are on the good side and face discrimination in every step and we therefore live in a deeply racist society despite that Britain is one of the most tolerant societies in the world (and leaving aside the irony that most POC immigrants come from societies that are far more systematically discriminatory and oppressive....)

When the genuine realities on the street is sharply different from the imaginary world of the establishment, it's only a matter of time till there's a backlash.
The key difference is that Trump openly advocates sexism and the persecution of one particular religion and and one ethnic minority. Brexit does none of those things.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The key difference is that Trump openly advocates sexism and the persecution of one particular religion and and one ethnic minority. Brexit does none of those things.
Brexit isn't a person, it's an action. It can't do any of those things anyway, so it isn't really a comparison. But there is certainly some overlap between people who voted for Brexit, and people who do those things. You might not fall into that category, but you know full well that there are those who do.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 4:53 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
The key difference is that Trump openly advocates sexism and the persecution of one particular religion and and one ethnic minority. Brexit does none of those things.
Only one?

What you say Trump advocates fits the UN definition of racial discrimination - "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin" - and since that includes discrimination on nationality, that matches Brexit and many of its supporters.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:04 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

There are still Progressive victories and will continue to be so.

The recent de platforming of Alastair Stewart comes to mind.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 5:07 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Only one?

What you say Trump advocates fits the UN definition of racial discrimination - "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin" - and since that includes discrimination on nationality, that matches Brexit and many of its supporters.
What nationality is Brexit aimed at in particular?
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 6:37 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

For hundreds of years, the streets of Erfurt have been filled with children in elaborate costume as the city celebrates its annual carnival. But for some, the party is now over.

The Campus Kinderland kindergarten has banned its charges from wearing fancy dress over concerns they could be “insulting” to minorities or cause “fear” among other children
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g...told-dhs28kchn

Another woke win.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 7:33 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

If you are a teacher, you'd use any excuse to ban costumes because they cause endless headaches.
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Old Jan 31st 2020, 8:38 pm
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost View Post
What nationality is Brexit aimed at in particular?
I said Brexit and many of its supporters. It doesn't have to be one nationality, it's anything not British and some perceived to be not pure British.

We're talking similarities with supporters as well as the entities they support and Trump supporters/Brexit supporters have shown an anti "not one of us" attitude.
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Old Feb 1st 2020, 12:16 am
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Default Re: The anti-woke backlash

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
The supporters and defenders of both ideas use identical language to describe them and identical language in describing those who oppose. They seem to have a lot in common.

Both won votes with minority support and both won on a campaign of lies and law breaking. Both lost numerous legal judgements along the way.

Both attract racist voters.

Sounds pretty similar.
Says it all right there, doesn't it?

If you don't vote the way BristolUK thinks you should, you are a horrible person and maybe also a criminal.

No attempt to understand the issues or motivations, and no attempt to understand how other people are living. Just, if you dare have a different strain of thought, immediate dismissal and slander.

I would encourage him to read his own post again in the context of "I wonder what could be igniting a backlash?" . . . and if there is a backlash, is it actually over race . . .

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