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-   -   After birth 'abortions'??!! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/after-birth-abortions-750005/)

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 3:45 pm

After birth 'abortions'??!!
 
OK ... this is far too hard for me to stomach - talk about the opposite end of the spectrum to the pro-lifers. Unbelievable.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethi...e-not-persons/

Jerseygirl Feb 28th 2012 3:46 pm

Re: After birth abortions??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925409)
OK ... this is far too hard for me to stomach - talk about the opposite end of the spectrum to the pro-lifers. Unbelievable.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethi...e-not-persons/

Would you like me to change the title of this thread to 'After birth murders'? ;)

Unfreakin'believable.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 3:48 pm

Re: After birth abortions??!!
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 9925416)
Would you like me to change the title of this thread to 'After birth murders'? ;)

Unfreakin'believable.

It would be a more accurate term, I believe. Maybe you could add quote marks for me?

Jerseygirl Feb 28th 2012 3:51 pm

Re: After birth abortions??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925422)
It would be a more accurate term, I believe. Maybe you could add quote marks for me?

Your wish is my command.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 3:53 pm

Re: After birth abortions??!!
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 9925428)
Your wish is my command.

:tape: (on the grounds this should remain a serious thread, at least for a while.)

CelticRover Feb 28th 2012 3:59 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 
Glenn Beck?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blaze_(web_site)

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 4:01 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by CelticRover (Post 9925453)

No thanks, I'm trying to give him up.

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 4:03 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 
OMG.

Why are you reading that shite?

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 4:10 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Leslie (Post 9925474)
OMG.

Why are you reading that shite?

Because I saw a link to it. Why should I not?

Sally Redux Feb 28th 2012 4:23 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 
Although I am pro-choice, from a philosophical point of view this makes sense:

The second we allow ourselves to become the arbiters of who is human and who isn’t, this is the calamitous yet inevitable end. Once you say all human life is not sacred, the rest is just drawing random lines in the sand.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 4:29 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Sally Redux (Post 9925516)
Although I am pro-choice, from a philosophical point of view this makes sense:

The second we allow ourselves to become the arbiters of who is human and who isn’t, this is the calamitous yet inevitable end. Once you say all human life is not sacred, the rest is just drawing random lines in the sand.

That, from the Catholic church, no less.

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 4:31 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925489)
Because I saw a link to it. Why should I not?

Because it is crap.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 4:33 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Leslie (Post 9925532)
Because it is crap.

Why is it "crap"? Is it factually incorrect, or do you just not approve of the source?

SultanOfSwing Feb 28th 2012 5:33 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925539)
Why is it "crap"? Is it factually incorrect, or do you just not approve of the source?

One hopes that it is factually incorrect, to be quite honest.

I can't believe the sense of flippancy I got out of that article. There is a vast, vast difference between terminating a pregnancy in utero at less than 20 weeks along and the mother giving birth to a baby and then (lets not muck about) killing that baby. Then there was that clap-trap about adoption being less desirable. The mind boggles.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 5:41 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 9925679)
One hopes that it is factually incorrect, to be quite honest.

I can't believe the sense of flippancy I got out of that article. There is a vast, vast difference between terminating a pregnancy in utero at less than 20 weeks along and the mother giving birth to a baby and then (lets not muck about) killing that baby. Then there was that clap-trap about adoption being less desirable. The mind boggles.

Flippancy is the trademark of these elitists. The idea that you should be able to kill a baby, on the grounds that it would be financially more desirable for the family?!! These people have no conscience, if an argument goes against their pure ethics or logic.

SultanOfSwing Feb 28th 2012 5:48 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925688)
Flippancy is the trademark of some of these "bioethicists". The idea that you should be able to kill a baby, on the grounds that it would be financially more desirable for the family?!! These people have no conscience, if an argument goes against their pure ethics or logic.

This one goes way beyond the pro-choice vs pro-life argument into an area we really shouldn't even be considering or debating at all.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 5:56 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 9925706)
This one goes way beyond the pro-choice vs pro-life argument into an area we really shouldn't even be considering or debating at all.

There is a link in the article, to the online Journal of Medical Ethics, which precises the paper. So, it would seem it is factually correct. I wonder if the two authors are prepared for the backlash.

SultanOfSwing Feb 28th 2012 6:03 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925719)
There is a link in the article, to the online Journal of Medical Ethics, which precises the paper. So, it would seem it is factually correct. I wonder if the two authors are prepared for the backlash.

Probably not. If they're so detached from reality that they could even consider presenting the 'argument', I doubt they'd even consider that anyone could find it in the least bit distasteful :blink:

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 6:03 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 
I really wish the url had been from another source, so I see Leslie's problem with it, though I do believe it is factually correct. I had never actually heard of "The Blaze" before - having now read some of the comments on this article, made by its subscribers, all I can say is :scaredhair:.

SultanOfSwing Feb 28th 2012 6:18 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925733)
I really wish the url had been from another source, so I see Leslie's problem with it, though I do believe it is factually correct. I had never actually heard of "The Blaze" before - having now read some of the comments on this article, made by its subscribers, all I can say is :scaredhair:.

They are rather ... interesting, aren't they?

fatbrit Feb 28th 2012 7:00 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925539)
Why is it "crap"? Is it factually incorrect, or do you just not approve of the source?

I don't see why there's all the fuss. The problem with Beck is he jumps from an academic paper by ethicists discussing a very difficult issue.....to it all becoming the law enforced by federal officers in long black coats next week. Obviously that isn't going to happen!

A Beck viewer contemplating ethics must be like an ant trying to understand an episode of Dallas.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 7:05 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by fatbrit (Post 9925861)
I don't see why there's all the fuss. The problem with Beck is he jumps from an academic paper by ethicists discussing a very difficult issue.....to it all becoming the law enforced by federal officers in long black coats next week. Obviously that isn't going to happen!

A Beck viewer contemplating ethics must be like an ant trying to understand an episode of Dallas.

Good grief. I was merely commenting on the fact that such a paper could be written, let alone published in a major medical journal.

I don't see it as being a "difficult issue", I see it as a heinous one.

Sally Redux Feb 28th 2012 7:07 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925872)
Good grief. I was merely commenting on the fact that such a paper could be written, let alone published in a major medical journal.

I don't see it as being a "difficult issue", I see it as a heinous one.

How does this square with you wanting to put a bullet in chavs?

fatbrit Feb 28th 2012 7:16 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925872)
I don't see it as being a "difficult issue", I see it as a heinous one.

If we're going to allow abortion, I don't see that we shouldn't investigate the consequences from an ethical point of view.

I find myself quite conflicted with my own anti/pro abortion issues and can argue it either way.

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 7:30 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925539)
Why is it "crap"? Is it factually incorrect, or do you just not approve of the source?

Because it's basically making a "news story" out of a tangential debate between two or more parties. Just because these people are talking about it doesn't mean that it will ever be applied to real life. People can intellectualize about whatever remote existential theories they like ... that doesn't make them real or even remotely probable.

Rags like this get a hold of this stuff and put it forward as something that somebody is actually trying to force onto you/us/we/them and everybody goes bonkers.

My outrage is reserved for things that are actually happening every day, like forced female circumcision in Africa and children being shot down in the streets of Syria, not some egghead's theory about something so far removed from reality that it shouldn't even matter except maybe to those who like to think and talk and write about such things.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 7:32 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Sally Redux (Post 9925875)
How does this square with you wanting to put a bullet in chavs?

I think you need to take a step back and see whether you can tell the difference between dark humour and dead serious consideration of the murder of a child.


Originally Posted by fatbrit (Post 9925899)
If we're going to allow abortion, I don't see that we shouldn't investigate the consequences from an ethical point of view.

I find myself quite conflicted with my own anti/pro abortion issues and can argue it either way.

You do realise that what they consider "abortion" is the killing of a full-term, baby and not a foetus, do you?

kimilseung Feb 28th 2012 7:35 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 
I only glanced at the article, but my assumption is that the authors are anti-abortion, and that it is a piece of rhetoric to extend pro-abortion arguments to babies and thus try to make an anti-abortion point. And that is why Beck like it.

"(The National Catholic) Register states that the argument made by the ethicists is almost pro-life in that it “highlights the absurdity of the pro-abortion argument”"

fatbrit Feb 28th 2012 7:38 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925937)
You do realise that what they consider "abortion" is the killing of a full-term, baby and not a foetus, do you?

Yes. I assume they're not trying it out in a lab though but rather doing a thought experiment.

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 7:38 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by kimilseung (Post 9925944)
I only glanced at the article, but my assumption is that the authors are anti-abortion, and that it is a piece of rhetoric to extend pro-abortion arguments to babies and thus try to make an anti-abortion point.

Yes. That was my impression also. Infanticide. The sky is falling.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 7:58 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Leslie (Post 9925932)
Because it's basically making a "news story" out of a tangential debate between two or more parties. Just because these people are talking about it doesn't mean that it will ever be applied to real life. People can intellectualize about whatever remote existential theories they like ... that doesn't make them real or even remotely probable.

Rags like this get a hold of this stuff and put it forward as something that somebody is actually trying to force onto you/us/we/them and everybody goes bonkers.

My outrage is reserved for things that are actually happening every day, like forced female circumcision in Africa and children being shot down in the streets of Syria, not some egghead's theory about something so far removed from reality that it shouldn't even matter except maybe to those who like to think and talk and write about such things.

Well, unlike you, my outrage is not rationed. I wish I could be flippant about it, but many questionable and (IMO) immoral procedures began life as a paper in a scientific journal.

Sally Redux Feb 28th 2012 8:00 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925937)
I think you need to take a step back and see whether you can tell the difference between dark humour and dead serious consideration of the murder of a child.



You do realise that what they consider "abortion" is the killing of a full-term, baby and not a foetus, do you?

And you're getting worked up about nothing as well.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 8:00 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by fatbrit (Post 9925952)
Yes. I assume they're not trying it out in a lab though but rather doing a thought experiment.

A thought experiment, which is being given credence, by being published in a respected medical journal.

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 8:02 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Sally Redux (Post 9926000)
And you're getting worked up about nothing as well.

In your opinion. As it is me that is getting worked up, I don't consider it "nothing", so your opinion counts for nothing.

kimilseung Feb 28th 2012 8:04 pm

Re: After birth 'abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 9925777)
They are rather ... interesting, aren't they?

Those bloody 'trojan' Greeks, acting like Spartans don't you know.

I actually find this argument interesting. ...."they just left newborns out in the elements and if they survived it was the gods will". But someone contradicts this argument, saying lower down "This is what happens when someone is without faith in God"

paranoidandroid Feb 28th 2012 8:15 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Sally Redux (Post 9926000)
And you're getting worked up about nothing as well.


Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9926004)
In your opinion. As it is me that is getting worked up, I don't consider it "nothing", so your opinion counts for nothing.

:popcorn: I'm watching. :boxing:

Sally Redux Feb 28th 2012 8:17 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid (Post 9926033)
:popcorn: I'm watching. :boxing:

I'm not going to get him any more worked up.

That's Jerseygirl's job :lol:

Uncle Ebenezer Feb 28th 2012 8:20 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid (Post 9926033)
:popcorn: I'm watching. :boxing:

Voyeur.


Originally Posted by Sally Redux (Post 9926040)
I'm not going to get him any more worked up.

That's Jerseygirl's job :lol:

:demon:

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 8:21 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Uncle Ebenezer (Post 9925997)
Well, unlike you, my outrage is not rationed. I wish I could be flippant about it, but many questionable and (IMO) immoral procedures began life as a paper in a scientific journal.

And many more reasonable and humane practices have come out of intellectual debate.

You do realize this "article" is most likely a propaganda tool used by the pro-life faction in order to get people whipped into a frenzy, right? Nobody is actually considering killing new born babies.

SultanOfSwing Feb 28th 2012 8:24 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by Leslie (Post 9926049)
And many more reasonable and humane practices have come out of intellectual debate.

You do realize this "article" is most likely a propaganda tool used by the pro-life faction in order to get people whipped into a frenzy, right? Nobody is actually considering killing new born babies.

Maybe so, but at the very outside edge of the whole idea - wouldn't you at least concede that people shouldn't use that argument as a form of rhetoric in an argument against the practice of legitamate abortions? Any woman who has made the decision to have had one of those doesn't need to be guilt tripped by claptrap such as this.

In effect, the use and sensationalism of this 'article' as propaganda is wrong in a practical way, rather than the theoretical wrong of the proposed infanticide?

Leslie Feb 28th 2012 8:27 pm

Re: 'After birth abortions'??!!
 

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 9926058)
Maybe so, but at the very outside edge of the whole idea - wouldn't you at least concede that people shouldn't use that argument as a form of rhetoric in an argument against the practice of legitamate abortions? Any woman who has made the decision to have had one of those doesn't need to be guilt tripped by claptrap such as this.

In effect, the use and sensationalism of this 'article' as propaganda is wrong in a practical way, rather than the theoretical wrong of the proposed infanticide?

My point is that they're using reverse psychology on people and it is working. Obviously.

Nobody actually believes in killing newborn babies.


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