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-   -   Afghanistan (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/afghanistan-940140/)

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 3:56 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 13040968)
Not sure that arrogance is the word I would use. Maybe cynicism. Twas ever thus with the governments of empires, but the US runs a lousy empire.

Not so sure any country run anything other than a lousy empire. Empires by definition are lousy except for a very few people that profit from them.

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 4:14 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040980)
Not so sure any country run anything other than a lousy empire. Empires by definition are lousy except for a very few people that profit from them.

Well yes, I was just being a bit facetious.

spouse of scouse Aug 16th 2021 6:36 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
After bringing less than 500 Afghan people to Australia over the past few months, the Australian government only yesterday announced final plans to evacuate hundreds more who'd assisted our troops. They've left it too late. I'm ashamed of my country.

Former defence chief Admiral Chris Barrie, who led Australia into a war in Afghanistan, said Australia was far too slow to evacuate those who helped Australian troops.

He said Afghans who have been left behind will bear the brunt of Taliban reprisals.

"There will be reprisals, there will be paybacks, there will be all sorts of brutalities that, I guess, will dribble out over the next period of time," Admiral Barrie said.

"For all of those people who helped us — God help them. God help them."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...ible/100381278

Scamp Aug 16th 2021 7:37 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040923)
Similarities to Jan 6th, US capital?

Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

Annetje Aug 16th 2021 7:43 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040958)
I think it's a terrible shame. To give people hope of a future free from oppression and then pull the rug out from under them is exceptionally cruel.

This !

Annetje Aug 16th 2021 7:45 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Bipat Aug 16th 2021 8:51 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 13040961)
They weren't doing nation building though. No nation was built. The country was occupied, but that's not the same thing at all.



Yes and there was not ever realistic hope of future major change. It is a beautiful country---talk to those in UK and India who have fled over the years---they would so much like to go back---now they never will.
It seems that people are forgetting the role of Pakistan. Taliban occupy north west border area of Pakistan ---oppressing the local people. Pakistan governments from the support of Benazir Bhutto to the lack of effort of subsequent governments have helped the Taliban maintain their power in Afghanistan.

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 12:34 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 13041001)
After bringing less than 500 Afghan people to Australia over the past few months, the Australian government only yesterday announced final plans to evacuate hundreds more who'd assisted our troops. They've left it too late. I'm ashamed of my country.

Former defence chief Admiral Chris Barrie, who led Australia into a war in Afghanistan, said Australia was far too slow to evacuate those who helped Australian troops.

He said Afghans who have been left behind will bear the brunt of Taliban reprisals.

"There will be reprisals, there will be paybacks, there will be all sorts of brutalities that, I guess, will dribble out over the next period of time," Admiral Barrie said.

"For all of those people who helped us — God help them. God help them."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...ible/100381278


Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 13041008)
Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

None of our collective countries should be anything but ashamed. We have never done anything but make things worse there.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 12:35 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 13041008)
Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

Agreed. But, to add some perspective, the United States engaged in bilateral talks with the Taliban for quite some time. (Note: Trump & the Taliban chose not to include the Afghan government in these talks.) The US (Trump) undertook to fully withdraw by May 1, 2021. Now, some might argue that part of Trump’s motivation was to hand a fait accompli, a guaranteed poisoned chalice, to Biden.

Another thing the Trump administration did, steadily & inexorably, over the course of four years, was to hollow out the State Department. Area experts left or had their departments downsized or eliminated. Trump political loyalists who weren’t foreign policy experts were inserted everywhere. Why is this relevant to the Afghanistan debacle? Because the State Department had a vital role in identifying & getting visas for vulnerable, American-aligned Afghans, people like translators who’d worked with the army etc.

Anyway, Biden was good with the general Trump/US policy; to get out of Afghanistan. For what it’s worth, he delayed it a bit. (US forces substantially withdrawn by July 4 rather than May 1.) When the Biden admin began, Jan 20 2021, after no effective transition period, they discovered that the weakened and emasculated State Dept had no plans for evacuating Afghan personnel. No work had been done toward this goal. Whether they could have done more to get this done, in the period of five months or so, I don’t know.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 1:34 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040967)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...-still-leaving

Not our tragedy, the arrogance is astounding

I know that you know this, but maybe it needs stating anyway.

The New Yorker doesn’t represent the US Government, Pentagon, or State Department.

The New Yorker is running several opinion pieces each day on the unfolding Afghanistan situation. Obviously, each represents a different opinion and different writer or subject expert’s history.

I think that piece by Glasser is pretty good, and realistic, though.

Scamp Aug 16th 2021 1:45 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13041070)
Agreed. But, to add some perspective, the United States engaged in bilateral talks with the Taliban for quite some time. (Note: Trump & the Taliban chose not to include the Afghan government in these talks.) The US (Trump) undertook to fully withdraw by May 1, 2021. Now, some might argue that part of Trump’s motivation was to hand a fait accompli, a guaranteed poisoned chalice, to Biden.

Another thing the Trump administration did, steadily & inexorably, over the course of four years, was to hollow out the State Department. Area experts left or had their departments downsized or eliminated. Trump political loyalists who weren’t foreign policy experts were inserted everywhere. Why is this relevant to the Afghanistan debacle? Because the State Department had a vital role in identifying & getting visas for vulnerable, American-aligned Afghans, people like translators who’d worked with the army etc.

Anyway, Biden was good with the general Trump/US policy; to get out of Afghanistan. For what it’s worth, he delayed it a bit. (US forces substantially withdrawn by July 4 rather than May 1.) When the Biden admin began, Jan 20 2021, after no effective transition period, they discovered that the weakened and emasculated State Dept had no plans for evacuating Afghan personnel. No work had been done toward this goal. Whether they could have done more to get this done, in the period of five months or so, I don’t know.

The other option was to stay there, spending US tax dollars on a country that is going to take decades and generations to 'change for the better' if we decide that's what they need.....with a population that has a chunk who don't want the West involved.

Unfortunately, the progress made could be undone in days, the only people left to deal with it are those left behind. Biden got handed a ticking time bomb, either blow it up and let it fail or extend the timer by throwing money and lives at it.

I mentioned this at work today to two of the team I work with, both looked at each other and then to me and said - what about Syria? What about Lebanon?

I'm all for being upset at the scenes and videos and situation, it's disgraceful, but they aren't the only location in the region being left to struggle and suffer.

Giantaxe Aug 16th 2021 3:50 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13041070)
Agreed. But, to add some perspective, the United States engaged in bilateral talks with the Taliban for quite some time. (Note: Trump & the Taliban chose not to include the Afghan government in these talks.) The US (Trump) undertook to fully withdraw by May 1, 2021. Now, some might argue that part of Trump’s motivation was to hand a fait accompli, a guaranteed poisoned chalice, to Biden.

Another thing the Trump administration did, steadily & inexorably, over the course of four years, was to hollow out the State Department. Area experts left or had their departments downsized or eliminated. Trump political loyalists who weren’t foreign policy experts were inserted everywhere. Why is this relevant to the Afghanistan debacle? Because the State Department had a vital role in identifying & getting visas for vulnerable, American-aligned Afghans, people like translators who’d worked with the army etc.

Biden was quite happy to be handed a "poisoned chalice" because his opposition to continuing the Afghan War is at least a decade long.

What we're seeing now seems more like an intelligence/military cockup in that it wasn't foreseen that the Afghan Army would crumble and melt away in a matter of weeks. But it does highlight the fact that the US got **** all for the $87bn it spent on building armed forces there capable of holding off the Taliban.

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 4:11 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040934)
Except these folks at the table in the Palace in Kabul probably know their arse from their elbow, unlike the US Jan 6 rioters & traitors.

Their philosophy or ideas of running a country are as much or more f'd up than that of the Oath Takers and the rest of the Jan 6th rabble.

morpeth Aug 16th 2021 4:31 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040963)
THE only un bungled way of pulling out would be to take every Afghani citizen who didn't want to live under Taliban rule with them. They have massively let these people down.

I wondered how many heads would roll at the State department, and among the top generals for this long fiasco- but probably none.

morpeth Aug 16th 2021 4:35 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040965)
In hindsight there is little if any solution to the situation. Afghanistan isn't the only country facing a similar plight. Most of Africa, much of Asia, South America, North Africa.
A Kenyan Neighbor was telling me of the plight of many poor Kenyans.
Not to mention the plight of the homeless and poverty in the US. Massively let down by the US gov itself.

Great point, the suffering around the world in the 21st century is not only sad but shows every indication to continue.


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