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scrubbedexpat091 Aug 15th 2021 7:55 pm

Afghanistan
 
No surprise, but Afghanistan government has fallen, Taliban have taken control over the presidential palace in Kabul, and the Afghanistan president has left the country.

US Military has been evacuating out diplomatic staff, several days ago it was reported the Embassy staff was directed to begin destroying as much as possible, including US flags.

UAE is also assisting in the evacuation of staff for France, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Canada, Australia, the Office of the United Nations Food Program, the United States, Germany, and Egypt.

Taliban spokesperson saying they will allow flights to operate as normal at the airport and that there is no danger to embassies, diplomatic missions, institutions and residences of foreign nationals.


https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/...-21/index.html

Taliban calling the handover as peaceful without bloodshed.

Derrygal Aug 15th 2021 8:29 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13040858)
No surprise, but Afghanistan government has fallen, Taliban have taken control over the presidential palace in Kabul, and the Afghanistan president has left the country.

US Military has been evacuating out diplomatic staff, several days ago it was reported the Embassy staff was directed to begin destroying as much as possible, including US flags.

UAE is also assisting in the evacuation of staff for France, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Canada, Australia, the Office of the United Nations Food Program, the United States, Germany, and Egypt.

Taliban spokesperson saying they will allow flights to operate as normal at the airport and that there is no danger to embassies, diplomatic missions, institutions and residences of foreign nationals.


https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/...-21/index.html

Taliban calling the handover as peaceful without bloodshed.

It's a mess - no doubt about that. I had mixed feelings about the pull-out of troops. I think how quickly the Taliban have taken over has surprised or rather shocked everyone.. Unbelievable really. It makes you wonder what the last 20 years were all about. I feel for the women and girls in that country and how they will be treated. Heard on one of the political talk shows this morning that women and girls are given lashes on the back just for wearing sandals. It's sad. It really is.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 15th 2021 8:41 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Derrygal (Post 13040868)
It's a mess - no doubt about that. I had mixed feelings about the pull-out of troops. I think how quickly the Taliban have taken over has surprised or rather shocked everyone.. Unbelievable really. It makes you wonder what the last 20 years were all about. I feel for the women and girls in that country and how they will be treated. Heard on one of the political talk shows this morning that women and girls are given lashes on the back just for wearing sandals. It's sad. It really is.

Seems to have taken the US by surprise in regards to the takeover of Kabul, granted they were prepping to leave the embassy in the next few days, but it went from several days to do it, to we have to go right now pretty quickly, it was only what Thursday or Friday it was reported that the embassy would begin to destroy documents, electronics and other things they don't want the Taliban to have, wonder how much they managed to destroy before being evacuated out.

I will take a wild guess and say the foreign embassies will probably be high on the list of places the Taliban will want to get into.


Lion in Winter Aug 15th 2021 9:27 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Derrygal (Post 13040868)
It's a mess - no doubt about that. I had mixed feelings about the pull-out of troops. I think how quickly the Taliban have taken over has surprised or rather shocked everyone.. Unbelievable really. It makes you wonder what the last 20 years were all about. I feel for the women and girls in that country and how they will be treated. Heard on one of the political talk shows this morning that women and girls are given lashes on the back just for wearing sandals. It's sad. It really is.


Presumably it was a done deal. For the Afghan government and all military resistance to fold so completely and so quickly, it doesn't seem as though there was any real intention to fight the Taliban. I would imagine a deal was also struck with China, back when the Taliban visited a short while ago.

The US invaded, with UK help, for its own geopolitical and economic aims. There was zero actual building of the country, it seems, allowing the Taliban to be seen as liberators of an invading force. After 20 years, there was nothing built for non-Taliban to fight for, and no governmental or military structure of any strength. Apparently. Pax Romana would have been a better model than this.

Now there's no chance of a modernizing force for god knows how long.

johnwoo Aug 15th 2021 9:52 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...om-Kabul-1842/

Fearful of increased Russian interest in the area, the British decided to invade Afghanistan and marched unchallenged into Kabul in early 1839 with a force of approximately 16,000 to 20,000 British and Indian troops collectively known as Indus. Yet a mere three years later there was only one known British survivor who staggered into Jalalabad in January 1842, after fleeing the carnage that befell his comrades in Gandamak.

"When will they ever learn"

Former Lancastrian Aug 15th 2021 9:57 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 
It's a shithole plain and simple. Yes we can feel sorry for the citizens but don't we also feel sorry for the citizens of North Korea, Myanmar, Somalia and a few others. If you are the USA, UK, Canada then stay the **** out as you are in a no win situation.

robin1234 Aug 15th 2021 10:04 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13040872)
Seems to have taken the US by surprise in regards to the takeover of Kabul, granted they were prepping to leave the embassy in the next few days, but it went from several days to do it, to we have to go right now pretty quickly, it was only what Thursday or Friday it was reported that the embassy would begin to destroy documents, electronics and other things they don't want the Taliban to have, wonder how much they managed to destroy before being evacuated out.

I will take a wild guess and say the foreign embassies will probably be high on the list of places the Taliban will want to get into.

I wonder about the embassies. If the US stayed in the Embassy, in light of the fact that the Taliban claim they want an orderly transfer of power, why wouldn’t the Taliban respect the US Embassy? After all the US and Taliban have been negotiating for a couple of years.

Lion in Winter Aug 15th 2021 10:07 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040896)
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...om-Kabul-1842/

Fearful of increased Russian interest in the area, the British decided to invade Afghanistan and marched unchallenged into Kabul in early 1839 with a force of approximately 16,000 to 20,000 British and Indian troops collectively known as Indus. Yet a mere three years later there was only one known British survivor who staggered into Jalalabad in January 1842, after fleeing the carnage that befell his comrades in Gandamak.

"When will they ever learn"

We don't learn.

And normal Afghans get hurt. Again.

robin1234 Aug 15th 2021 10:09 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040896)
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...om-Kabul-1842/

Fearful of increased Russian interest in the area, the British decided to invade Afghanistan and marched unchallenged into Kabul in early 1839 with a force of approximately 16,000 to 20,000 British and Indian troops collectively known as Indus. Yet a mere three years later there was only one known British survivor who staggered into Jalalabad in January 1842, after fleeing the carnage that befell his comrades in Gandamak.

"When will they ever learn"

One known survivor. Probably quite a few others survived, wandered back to India in the ensuing months and years.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 15th 2021 10:34 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 
US has flown out 500 embassy staffers so far, approx. 4,000 US citizens and Afghan nationals who work for the embassy still waiting to be flown out, the number does not include families of the Afghan nationals employed at the embassy, it is unclear what the US plan is there.

6,000 US troops earmarked for security duty in Kabulwill now be used to secure the airport, it has been reported that hundreds of Afghan nationals have fled to the airport to try and get out and growing unrest at the airport and threat of Taliban attacks, so the focus according to the defense department is to secure the airport to get people out.

US forces could stay for as long as is needed to keep the airport secured.

Note the 6,000 troops is double the original 3,000 the pentagon had planned to have in Kabul for general security.

General Frank McKenzie, commander of US CENTCOM met with Taliban leaders in Qatar to communicate the US sole mission is to keep the airport secure to get people out.

French military is evacuating French nationals and flying them to UAE.

Turkey says they will work with Pakistan to stabilize Afghanistan and prevent a new wave Afghan migrants

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/...-21/index.html


I don't know the accuracy of this video, but it was rather interesting if its true.








caretaker Aug 15th 2021 10:43 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 
The new government in the palace:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...0211d02c7a.png

johnwoo Aug 15th 2021 11:21 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by caretaker (Post 13040914)


Similarities to Jan 6th, US capital?

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 15th 2021 11:29 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 
The White House has curtailed the number of flights to the United States for Afghan Embassy workers to prioritize the evacuation of American personnel, apparently the airport has become to chaotic and is affecting aircraft being able to land, the last Afghan Special Immigrant Visa flight departed for Virginia, unknown when or if additional flights will be available.

According to CNN sources, they quote 4 unnamed US sources.





johnwoo Aug 15th 2021 11:59 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040905)
One known survivor. Probably quite a few others survived, wandered back to India in the ensuing months and years.

I believe more survivors did show up later,

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 12:00 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040923)
Similarities to Jan 6th, US capital?

Except these folks at the table in the Palace in Kabul probably know their arse from their elbow, unlike the US Jan 6 rioters & traitors.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 12:04 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13040924)
The White House has curtailed the number of flights to the United States for Afghan Embassy workers to prioritize the evacuation of American personnel, apparently the airport has become to chaotic and is affecting aircraft being able to land, the last Afghan Special Immigrant Visa flight departed for Virginia, unknown when or if additional flights will be available.

According to CNN sources, they quote 4 unnamed US sources.

Just wondering about safety and logistics. What happens if they run out of jet fuel or other essential supplies at the airport? Rely on the goodwill of the Taliban?

Derrygal Aug 16th 2021 12:17 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040923)
Similarities to Jan 6th, US capital?


Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040934)
Except these folks at the table in the Palace in Kabul probably know their arse from their elbow, unlike the US Jan 6 rioters & traitors.

Yes I am sure they do!

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 16th 2021 12:17 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040935)
Just wondering about safety and logistics. What happens if they run out of jet fuel or other essential supplies at the airport? Rely on the goodwill of the Taliban?

Looks the US has lost control over the airport so you might be onto something, guess 6,000 troops was not sufficient number. These appear to be Afghan civilians desperate to leave.




scrubbedexpat091 Aug 16th 2021 12:24 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
Current airspace over Kabul, the yellow plane is a US KC-130 the red plane is a Bombardier Global 6000 but its at 45,000 feet so appears to just be overflying with no intention to land in Afghanistan. The only other aircraft in Afghan airspace visible is Aeroflot flying to Moscow from Bangkok.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...4a532b56f0.png

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 12:24 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040934)
Except these folks at the table in the Palace in Kabul probably know their arse from their elbow, unlike the US Jan 6 rioters & traitors.

No doubt, but the optics and intentions are similar.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 16th 2021 12:42 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
Various countries restrictions they have placed on their airlines and overlying Afghanistan.

UK/France/Canada: No overflight under FL250/260
Germany: No overflight under FL330
US: No overflight under FL260 except for ops to/from OAKB/Kabul

Additional photos taken at Kabul Airport.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...6e5eb16f9.jpeg



Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 1:28 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
Back to the middle ages for the women, then.

scrubbedexpat098 Aug 16th 2021 1:33 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
I think it's a terrible shame. To give people hope of a future free from oppression and then pull the rug out from under them is exceptionally cruel.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 1:47 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040958)
I think it's a terrible shame. To give people hope of a future free from oppression and then pull the rug out from under them is exceptionally cruel.

Certainly, that’s why they should never have embarked on nation building. Unless they were prepared to invest the blood and treasure in perpetuity.

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 1:55 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 13040959)
Certainly, that’s why they should never have embarked on nation building. Unless they were prepared to invest the blood and treasure in perpetuity.

They weren't doing nation building though. No nation was built. The country was occupied, but that's not the same thing at all.

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 2:03 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040958)
I think it's a terrible shame. To give people hope of a future free from oppression and then pull the rug out from under them is exceptionally cruel.

20 years in Afghanistan, and this is the inevitable result. How long 20, 30, 50 more years? The pullout has been badly bungled however,

scrubbedexpat098 Aug 16th 2021 2:08 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040962)
20 years in Afghanistan, and this is the inevitable result. How long 20, 30, 50 more years? The pullout has been badly bungled however,

THE only un bungled way of pulling out would be to take every Afghani citizen who didn't want to live under Taliban rule with them. They have massively let these people down.

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 2:24 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040963)
THE only un bungled way of pulling out would be to take every Afghani citizen who didn't want to live under Taliban rule with them. They have massively let these people down.

In hindsight there is little if any solution to the situation. Afghanistan isn't the only country facing a similar plight. Most of Africa, much of Asia, South America, North Africa.
A Kenyan Neighbor was telling me of the plight of many poor Kenyans.
Not to mention the plight of the homeless and poverty in the US. Massively let down by the US gov itself.

scrubbedexpat098 Aug 16th 2021 2:27 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...-still-leaving

Not our tragedy, the arrogance is astounding

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 2:41 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040967)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...-still-leaving

Not our tragedy, the arrogance is astounding


Not sure that arrogance is the word I would use. Maybe cynicism. Twas ever thus with the governments of empires, but the US runs a lousy empire.

johnwoo Aug 16th 2021 3:56 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 13040968)
Not sure that arrogance is the word I would use. Maybe cynicism. Twas ever thus with the governments of empires, but the US runs a lousy empire.

Not so sure any country run anything other than a lousy empire. Empires by definition are lousy except for a very few people that profit from them.

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 4:14 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040980)
Not so sure any country run anything other than a lousy empire. Empires by definition are lousy except for a very few people that profit from them.

Well yes, I was just being a bit facetious.

spouse of scouse Aug 16th 2021 6:36 am

Re: Afghanistan
 
After bringing less than 500 Afghan people to Australia over the past few months, the Australian government only yesterday announced final plans to evacuate hundreds more who'd assisted our troops. They've left it too late. I'm ashamed of my country.

Former defence chief Admiral Chris Barrie, who led Australia into a war in Afghanistan, said Australia was far too slow to evacuate those who helped Australian troops.

He said Afghans who have been left behind will bear the brunt of Taliban reprisals.

"There will be reprisals, there will be paybacks, there will be all sorts of brutalities that, I guess, will dribble out over the next period of time," Admiral Barrie said.

"For all of those people who helped us — God help them. God help them."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...ible/100381278

Scamp Aug 16th 2021 7:37 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by johnwoo (Post 13040923)
Similarities to Jan 6th, US capital?

Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

Annetje Aug 16th 2021 7:43 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040958)
I think it's a terrible shame. To give people hope of a future free from oppression and then pull the rug out from under them is exceptionally cruel.

This !

Annetje Aug 16th 2021 7:45 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Bipat Aug 16th 2021 8:51 am

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 13040961)
They weren't doing nation building though. No nation was built. The country was occupied, but that's not the same thing at all.



Yes and there was not ever realistic hope of future major change. It is a beautiful country---talk to those in UK and India who have fled over the years---they would so much like to go back---now they never will.
It seems that people are forgetting the role of Pakistan. Taliban occupy north west border area of Pakistan ---oppressing the local people. Pakistan governments from the support of Benazir Bhutto to the lack of effort of subsequent governments have helped the Taliban maintain their power in Afghanistan.

Lion in Winter Aug 16th 2021 12:34 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 13041001)
After bringing less than 500 Afghan people to Australia over the past few months, the Australian government only yesterday announced final plans to evacuate hundreds more who'd assisted our troops. They've left it too late. I'm ashamed of my country.

Former defence chief Admiral Chris Barrie, who led Australia into a war in Afghanistan, said Australia was far too slow to evacuate those who helped Australian troops.

He said Afghans who have been left behind will bear the brunt of Taliban reprisals.

"There will be reprisals, there will be paybacks, there will be all sorts of brutalities that, I guess, will dribble out over the next period of time," Admiral Barrie said.

"For all of those people who helped us — God help them. God help them."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...ible/100381278


Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 13041008)
Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

None of our collective countries should be anything but ashamed. We have never done anything but make things worse there.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 12:35 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 13041008)
Amen to that.


Utterly shameful to disappear in the dead of night and leave a vacuum to be filled by mentalists.

The rush to the airport and fear shows what most Afghani's think of the Taliban despite their promises.

Agreed. But, to add some perspective, the United States engaged in bilateral talks with the Taliban for quite some time. (Note: Trump & the Taliban chose not to include the Afghan government in these talks.) The US (Trump) undertook to fully withdraw by May 1, 2021. Now, some might argue that part of Trump’s motivation was to hand a fait accompli, a guaranteed poisoned chalice, to Biden.

Another thing the Trump administration did, steadily & inexorably, over the course of four years, was to hollow out the State Department. Area experts left or had their departments downsized or eliminated. Trump political loyalists who weren’t foreign policy experts were inserted everywhere. Why is this relevant to the Afghanistan debacle? Because the State Department had a vital role in identifying & getting visas for vulnerable, American-aligned Afghans, people like translators who’d worked with the army etc.

Anyway, Biden was good with the general Trump/US policy; to get out of Afghanistan. For what it’s worth, he delayed it a bit. (US forces substantially withdrawn by July 4 rather than May 1.) When the Biden admin began, Jan 20 2021, after no effective transition period, they discovered that the weakened and emasculated State Dept had no plans for evacuating Afghan personnel. No work had been done toward this goal. Whether they could have done more to get this done, in the period of five months or so, I don’t know.

robin1234 Aug 16th 2021 1:34 pm

Re: Afghanistan
 

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 (Post 13040967)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...-still-leaving

Not our tragedy, the arrogance is astounding

I know that you know this, but maybe it needs stating anyway.

The New Yorker doesn’t represent the US Government, Pentagon, or State Department.

The New Yorker is running several opinion pieces each day on the unfolding Afghanistan situation. Obviously, each represents a different opinion and different writer or subject expert’s history.

I think that piece by Glasser is pretty good, and realistic, though.


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