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39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Old Oct 26th 2019, 11:30 am
  #31  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Why do you say they are illegal? Just because they are Chinese?
Are you saying they are not illegal and BTW several of the dead were Vietnamese.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 11:35 am
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Why do you say they are illegal? Just because they are Chinese?
This is an odd question. Their mode of travel suggests illegality. However it's not clear whether they were being smuggled or trafficked. If smuggled (voluntary) I don't understand why they wouldn't be content with staying in France instead of taking the dangerous container ride. Especially the Vietnamese who sometimes speak French.

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Old Oct 26th 2019, 11:51 am
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Why do you say they are illegal? Just because they are Chinese?
Because crossing the border in the back of a lorry is illegal regardless of your nationality.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:10 pm
  #34  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Because crossing the border in the back of a lorry is illegal regardless of your nationality.
I disagree well my Government does . A person who enters the country other than at a port of entry or does not report for examination is an irregular. Although we have signs at the border stating it is illegal to cross into Canada other than an official border crossing if they do so and then make a refugee claim then they are an irregular arrival. This has the population confused as the Liberals deem it irregular and the Conservatives says it is illegal. Then add in the UN and its rules that those seeking protection should not be charged with a crime. In my 30 years the only people I have seen criminally charged for this offence are those who have previously been deported and come back without written authority and usually about on the 4th time of doing so. Although there are provisions to lay criminal charges under the Act it is normally dealt with by an Administrative function and not criminal.

For the sake of PC I now just call them a foreign national who has not been authorized to enter Canada or a foreign national without status.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:17 pm
  #35  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
I disagree well my Government does . A person who enters the country other than at a port of entry or does not report for examination is an irregular. Although we have signs at the border stating it is illegal to cross into Canada other than an official border crossing if they do so and then make a refugee claim then they are an irregular arrival. This has the population confused as the Liberals deem it irregular and the Conservatives says it is illegal. Then add in the UN and its rules that those seeking protection should not be charged with a crime. In my 30 years the only people I have seen criminally charged for this offence are those who have previously been deported and come back without written authority and usually about on the 4th time of doing so. Although there are provisions to lay criminal charges under the Act it is normally dealt with by an Administrative function and not criminal.

For the sake of PC I now just call them a foreign national who has not been authorized to enter Canada or a foreign national without status.
When I worked at the Channel Tunnel, we had to call them clandestines.. This is a tragedy whatever you call them. People will do nicely
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:20 pm
  #36  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
Because crossing the border in the back of a lorry is illegal regardless of your nationality.
I don't think anybody would dispute that crossing a border in the back of a lorry is an illegal action, but the question is whether the migrants were illegal before they did this. The suggestion was that european authorities are allowing "illegals" to "pile up in jungle camps" - thereby putting the blame on those authorities for not doing enough to prevent such attempts.......

Even if the migrants were illegal before crossing, this suggests that the european authorities should have been better at detecting them than Border Force (who didn't)..... and that they could have done more to prevent them attempting to bypass immigration controls. I am sure the counter argument could be made that the British authorities are not doing enough to suppress the demand for access to "the land of milk and honey".

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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:30 pm
  #37  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
Are you saying they are not illegal and BTW several of the dead were Vietnamese.
Originally Posted by Shard View Post
This is an odd question. Their mode of travel suggests illegality. However it's not clear whether they were being smuggled or trafficked. If smuggled (voluntary) I don't understand why they wouldn't be content with staying in France instead of taking the dangerous container ride. Especially the Vietnamese who sometimes speak French.
Capey was talking about being illegally on the mainland.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:32 pm
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
I disagree well my Government does . A person who enters the country other than at a port of entry or does not report for examination is an irregular. Although we have signs at the border stating it is illegal to cross into Canada other than an official border crossing if they do so and then make a refugee claim then they are an irregular arrival. This has the population confused as the Liberals deem it irregular and the Conservatives says it is illegal. Then add in the UN and its rules that those seeking protection should not be charged with a crime. In my 30 years the only people I have seen criminally charged for this offence are those who have previously been deported and come back without written authority and usually about on the 4th time of doing so. Although there are provisions to lay criminal charges under the Act it is normally dealt with by an Administrative function and not criminal.

For the sake of PC I now just call them a foreign national who has not been authorized to enter Canada or a foreign national without status.
The act remains illegal whatever terminology you apply to the person committing said act. I was neither saying not implying anything more than that.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:33 pm
  #39  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I don't think anybody would dispute that crossing a border in the back of a lorry is an illegal action, but the question is whether the migrants were illegal before they did this...
Quite. My question is why did Capey think that they were illegally in the EU?

Maybe because they look a bit different?

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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:33 pm
  #40  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I don't think anybody would dispute that crossing a border in the back of a lorry is an illegal action, but the question is whether the migrants were illegal before they did this. The suggestion was that european authorities are allowing "illegals" to "pile up in jungle camps" - thereby putting the blame on those authorities for not doing enough to prevent such attempts.......

Even if the migrants were illegal before crossing, this suggests that the european authorities should have been better at detecting them than Border Force (who didn't)..... and that they could have done more to prevent them attempting to bypass immigration controls. I am sure the counter argument could be made that the British authorities are not doing enough to suppress the demand for access to "the land of milk and honey".
A person cannot be said to be illegal before they enter the country unless you put it in the context that they are intending to enter illegally as they do not have the documents required where necessary to enter legally. Now we can also suggest that once they entered the EU and specifically Belgium that they were probably illegal in that country but not the UK. It is only when you land on UK soil and have not reported for examination is when you become illegal.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:36 pm
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
The act remains illegal whatever terminology you apply to the person committing said act. I was neither saying not implying anything more than that.
Oh I know that but unfortunately we are no longer allowed to speak the truth as it offends others.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:38 pm
  #42  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
I disagree well my Government does . A person who enters the country other than at a port of entry or does not report for examination is an irregular. Although we have signs at the border stating it is illegal to cross into Canada other than an official border crossing if they do so and then make a refugee claim then they are an irregular arrival. This has the population confused as the Liberals deem it irregular and the Conservatives says it is illegal. Then add in the UN and its rules that those seeking protection should not be charged with a crime. In my 30 years the only people I have seen criminally charged for this offence are those who have previously been deported and come back without written authority and usually about on the 4th time of doing so. Although there are provisions to lay criminal charges under the Act it is normally dealt with by an Administrative function and not criminal.

For the sake of PC I now just call them a foreign national who has not been authorized to enter Canada or a foreign national without status.
FL do you have a link to some stats on the number of refugees that were crossing into Quebec a few months ago (or news article). When there was a 'surge'. I was having a debate with a friend who seemed to think Canada has nearly no illegal crossings compared to the masses on the US border.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:45 pm
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I don't think anybody would dispute that crossing a border in the back of a lorry is an illegal action, but the question is whether the migrants were illegal before they did this. The suggestion was that european authorities are allowing "illegals" to "pile up in jungle camps" - thereby putting the blame on those authorities for not doing enough to prevent such attempts.......
That we don’t know. They may have entered the Schengen Area legally - as tourists - before getting on the trailer. They may have travelled legally to a transit point before entering Schengen illegally. They may have also entered Schengen directly but illegally using fraudulent documents. However it was done, they wouldn’t have been at any of the ‘Jungle’ camps (which are long gone at Calais in any case) - they would’ve been under the control of the smuggling gangs throughout the process.

Even if the migrants were illegal before crossing, this suggests that the european authorities should have been better at detecting them than Border Force (who didn't)..... and that they could have done more to prevent them attempting to bypass immigration controls. I am sure the counter argument could be made that the British authorities are not doing enough to suppress the demand for access to "the land of milk and honey".
Short of running the economy into the ground or turning the country into a police state, I’m not sure how you would make the UK a less desirable destination for migrants.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 12:49 pm
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
Quite. My question is why did Capey think that they were illegally in the EU?

Maybe because they look a bit different?
Because people smuggling gangs don’t tend to help migrants complete the appropriate visa application form. If you want to call Cape a racist then just get on with it.
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Old Oct 26th 2019, 1:02 pm
  #45  
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Default re: 39 Vietnamese from Zeebrugge

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
FL do you have a link to some stats on the number of refugees that were crossing into Quebec a few months ago (or news article). When there was a 'surge'. I was having a debate with a friend who seemed to think Canada has nearly no illegal crossings compared to the masses on the US border.
The recent figures ending August 2019 for in between POE's (Roxham Rd) for 2019 is 10, 076.

From 2011 to 2016 the numbers for Quebec were 1665.
2017 for Quebec 18, 836
2018 for Quebec 18, 518

Also Manitoba and BC get the in between ports of entry crossers but certainly less than Quebec. Basically the papers say just over 50,000 since Trump was elected and Trudeau made his famous tweet. The numbers will also decrease due to the new regulations stating if you have made a claim for protection in another country then you are not eligible to make a claim in Canada.

Stats in below link

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...um-claims.html

To compare our numbers to the US is pointless as they can get more in 1 month than what we get in a year. A point for consideration is that those caught in the US are usually sent to an ICE Detention Facility whereas Canada will put them up in a hotel, provide healthcare and assistance which is costing millions of taxpayer dollars.

Last edited by Former Lancastrian; Oct 26th 2019 at 1:07 pm.
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