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Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Old Jan 7th 2011, 12:49 pm
  #316  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by HBG View Post
I watched a TV programme just the other day called Saints and Sinners (I’m rapidly turning into a sad person). It was about benefit fraud, supposedly balanced by helping people obtain benefits if they didn’t know how to.
Well that's two saddo's because I saw it too.
It seems to me that there is some dramatic difference in the law or legislation that makes benefit fraud somehow different to any other fraud or crime of theft and therein there is no real deterent to the crime.
It took 3 years for the council (not the police) to make a case against this woman and as you say at a cost higher than the theft.
What's that all about? Clearly there is something going on that we are not aware of when it comes to benefit fraud.
So how is it that MP's get a smack on the wrist for fraud yet a shop lifter gets a criminal record
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 12:50 pm
  #317  
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Smile Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by Bigger Jim View Post
Read the title what has that got to do with most of the respondents. How many owned up to being benefit cheats? Can't recall any

Jim
I am NOT a benefit cheat.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 12:59 pm
  #318  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by John & Kath View Post
I am NOT a benefit cheat.
I am a benefit cheat. I benefit from paying less to all the expats working in the black economy
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 1:01 pm
  #319  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by twistedmelon View Post
So how is it that MP's get a smack on the wrist for fraud yet a shop lifter gets a criminal record

Exactly. In my book, even if the two crimes were rated as equal, it is worse because the MP was in a position of trust.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 3:43 pm
  #320  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by twistedmelon View Post
What's that all about? Clearly there is something going on that we are not aware of when it comes to benefit fraud.
So how is it that MP's get a smack on the wrist for fraud yet a shop lifter gets a criminal record

Maybe there are not as many benefit fraudsters as we are led to believe? Maybe it was easier to defraud the system in the past 10 years?

However, as new applicants and existing recipients are to be better scrutinised much of the fraud opportunities of the past will be eradicated.

As for MP´s the first to be sentenced has today been given 18 months inside.
Hardly a slap on the wrist.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 4:07 pm
  #321  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by whitelinen View Post
Maybe there are not as many benefit fraudsters as we are led to believe? Maybe it was easier to defraud the system in the past 10 years?

However, as new applicants and existing recipients are to be better scrutinised much of the fraud opportunities of the past will be eradicated.

As for MP´s the first to be sentenced has today been given 18 months inside.
Hardly a slap on the wrist
.
I think he was expecting a slap on the wrist. What a shock
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:17 pm
  #322  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by bil View Post
It's the property of the person who paid for it.

The reason for all this was to point out to people here that they should perhaps pay attention to the biblical admonition of motes and beams. I will wager there are people here who shriek with horror at the thought of someone fiddling a bit of extra money each week, but who would pick up a 10 euro note and pocket it without thinking. I must admit I would pocket ten euros. Or for that matter claim on their tax for expenses they know they are not really entitled to. In my previous existence, I was in a position to claim milage and travelling time allowance and to the best of my knowledge I have never claimed anything I was not entitled to. In fact I was a little annoyed when my usual supervisor, who knew I was an honest person and never asked to see my timesheet, was absent and another person had to authorise it and queried every last mile.

Of course I was able to tell him honestly why I had made that journey
.

I'm not setting myself up as some kind of moralist here, because I too would pick it up.

Theft is theft. There are no ifs or buts. Saying that something is less of a crime is the same as saying someone is just a bit pregnant, or technically pregnant. It's an all or nothing thing.
See my comments in blue above.

I agree with your final paragraph. However, some types of theft are more damaging to society than others. I agree it makes none of them right. When we apply a little common sense, we can see that taking a newspaper from a park bench is not as bad as Benefit fraud.

If you are going to refer to bankers and MPs again, be aware that none of what the bankers have done, nor what most of the MPs have done, is illegal. Benefit fraud is.

Last edited by scampicat; Jan 7th 2011 at 5:22 pm.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:20 pm
  #323  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by whitelinen View Post
Maybe there are not as many benefit fraudsters as we are led to believe? Maybe it was easier to defraud the system in the past 10 years?

However, as new applicants and existing recipients are to be better scrutinised much of the fraud opportunities of the past will be eradicated.

As for MP´s the first to be sentenced has today been given 18 months inside.
Hardly a slap on the wrist.
Oh good! Which one was that?
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:24 pm
  #324  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by scampicat View Post
Oh good! Which one was that?
David Chaytor, ex labour Mp for Bury.

He was done for supplying fake documents for rental agreements on 2 properties, 1 he already owned outright and the other was owned by his mother.

Diddums.......
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:27 pm
  #325  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by scampicat View Post
See my comments in blue above.

I agree with your final paragraph. However, some types of theft are more damaging to society than others. I agree it makes none of them right. When we apply a little common sense, we can see that taking a newspaper from a park bench is not as bad as Benefit fraud.

If you are going to refer to bankers and MPs again, be aware that none of what the bankers have done, nor what most of the MPs have done, is illegal. Benefit fraud is.
Too right, it is fine saying theft is theft, but as stated here, common sense has to be brought into play, or we would get ourselves tied up in knots over trivialities.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:39 pm
  #326  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

The horrendous cost of mounting a prosecution against benefit cheats is a serious problem. My last job before leaving the UK was with a regulatory authority and we often had enough evidence to prosecute doctors for, say, supplying slimming drugs illegally, but we had to take into account the costs of prosecution and sadly more often than not it was felt that they could not be justified. Thus people got away scot free with committing crimes, apart from being sent scolding letters - hardly a deterrent.

How do you get around this when restrictions on public spending are set to get even tighter?
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 5:51 pm
  #327  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by scampicat View Post
See my comments in blue above.

I agree with your final paragraph. However, some types of theft are more damaging to society than others. I agree it makes none of them right. When we apply a little common sense, we can see that taking a newspaper from a park bench is not as bad as Benefit fraud.

If you are going to refer to bankers and MPs again, be aware that none of what the bankers have done, nor what most of the MPs have done, is illegal. Benefit fraud is.
Would you like to live in a legal society...or a moral one? Although Mostly these two are the same thing. It's more the case that they should be , but aren't.
For me, it comes down like this. I want to be legal, but I *need* to be moral!

I was taught my values (homilies) from my mother's knee
"to thine own self be true....." etc
and "oh what a tangled web we weave....." etc
A lot of people are never taught these values but rush to judgement on someone who's getting £5 illegal benefit money. But think it's OK to do anything which is not strictly illegal but which most people would regard as immoral... Excessive claims on insurance for example. These are not victimless crimes. Other insurance payers pay!! I lived in Hull through the floods about 3 years ago. Most of the claimants were genuine, But there was a significant proportion who were not or who's builders had them bump up the amount of work done! Water came to just milimetres from our floorboards. We could have claimed. We didn't. Our house had already been damp it was that way when we bought it, and we'd already taken the plaster off the bottom of the walls. Given that most houses down our street were affected and did claim, It would have been legal for me to claim... but immoral. I bet there's a few of the 'judgemental' on here who would have claimed in that circumstance!
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 6:02 pm
  #328  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by angiescarr View Post
Would you like to live in a legal society...or a moral one? Although Mostly these two are the same thing. It's more the case that they should be , but aren't.
For me, it comes down like this. I want to be legal, but I *need* to be moral!

I was taught my values (homilies) from my mother's knee
"to thine own self be true....." etc
and "oh what a tangled web we weave....." etc
A lot of people are never taught these values but rush to judgement on someone who's getting £5 illegal benefit money. But think it's OK to do anything which is not strictly illegal but which most people would regard as immoral... Excessive claims on insurance for example. These are not victimless crimes. Other insurance payers pay!! I lived in Hull through the floods about 3 years ago. Most of the claimants were genuine, But there was a significant proportion who were not or who's builders had them bump up the amount of work done! Water came to just milimetres from our floorboards. We could have claimed. We didn't. Our house had already been damp it was that way when we bought it, and we'd already taken the plaster off the bottom of the walls. Given that most houses down our street were affected and did claim, It would have been legal for me to claim... but immoral. I bet there's a few of the 'judgemental' on here who would have claimed in that circumstance!
My mother brought me up with those values too. In fact I can remember her saying that if I want an honest society, then it must start with me myself. I have always remembered this and tried to adhere to it as much as I humanly can. I am the sort of person who will give back the money if someone makes a mistake and gives me change for twenty euros instead of ten. Also by nature I am very much a 'rules' person, I will keep to the rules and in fact one of the reasons I sometimes get frustrated about living in Spain is that no-one seems to know what the rules are.

I agree with your remarks about insurance fraud, in my book this and benefit fraud are equal cases of fraud.

I also agree that legality and morality should be the same but often are not. If it was a choice between the two, then morality is the one to chose.

Last edited by scampicat; Jan 7th 2011 at 6:14 pm.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 6:03 pm
  #329  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by JLFS View Post
David Chaytor, ex labour Mp for Bury.

He was done for supplying fake documents for rental agreements on 2 properties, 1 he already owned outright and the other was owned by his mother.

Diddums.......
Thanks JL, just seen it on the news. Just deserts!

When are the others being sentenced?

Last edited by scampicat; Jan 7th 2011 at 6:11 pm.
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Old Jan 7th 2011, 6:41 pm
  #330  
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Default Re: Are you a benefit fraud.. and living in Spain?

Originally Posted by whitelinen View Post
As for MP´s the first to be sentenced has today been given 18 months inside.
Hardly a slap on the wrist.
Get real. 18 equals half that for good behaviour, then there will be extra concessions for the religious conversion and the crocodile tears.

I'd see him do 5 years minimum. He was a lying, cheating scumbag in a position of high trust, and he knowingly broke the rules, soft tho they were and open to abuse. Even in those slack reins he couldn't walk straight.

People like him disgust me.
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