scrubbedexpat142

[QUOTE=carcajou;12365767] 194 million capable of moving is a heck of a lot of people (3 times the population of the UK).

carcajou

We are speaking about inter-operability of languages across the EU - ie, how many people speak Language X outside the native countries.

So in our discussion about English we are subtracting the populations of the UK (for pre-Brexit) and Ireland; for German, subtracting Germany and Austria.

I realise these are imperfect statistics and use the false assumption that everyone in the UK speaks English to a native level etc - the point is to just arrive at a ballpark figure.

So, if 27% of the current EU population of 508 million speak German - that is 137 million people.

Now subtract 83 million [for Germany] and 8 million [for Austria] from that and you arrive at 46 million people in a post-Brexit EU, outside Germany and Austria, speak German.

Divide 46 million by 442 million [post-Brexit EU population] and you get 10.4%.

scrubbedexpat142

So why are you deducting the 91 million. Post Brexit those people will still be part of the equation. Besides, as we have shown, it's the penetration of English that counts.

carcajou

Where are they going to go with those English skills, with the UK gone? That's my point. Ireland is way too small.

They will still need to learn the native language of whatever EU country they go to, in order to be able to integrate effectively into society. Even if the Volkswagen Manger wants them to speak English while in their cubicles.

carcajou

To show how limited German penetration is in the European Union, outside of Germany and Austria - which highlights how difficult it would be for someone from outside those two countries to successfully move there and integrate, as the needed language skills are not present for the vast majority of EU citizens.

So unless you have a boss in Hamburg or Vienna commanding you to speak your native language in your cubicle - which unless you are from Ireland in a post-Brexit EU, you won't - "Free Movement" is effectively illusory as a practical benefit. A wonderful benefit in theory and concept but symbolic in practise.

scrubbedexpat142

Europeans learn English to enable free movement throughout Europe, not just for England or for the benefit of the English. As I said I worked among thousands of ex pat Europeans (& not in the UK) who conversed & wrote in English.

Rotor

For court appearances ?

scrubbedexpat142

Proved a point!

carcajou

I didn't say they did. But when the next "in / out" referendum comes up - say, for instance, in Italy - the "in" crowd are going to need to point to much more substantial benefits to the population than Free Movement, which can't effectively be used by the vast majority of them, and the Euro which a majority of voters have now turned against.

The historical symbolism of it will somewhat resonate, but only up to a certain point.

Italy was just an example. Embers are burning in many parts of the Continent.

Pulaski

Well assuming that you mean the EFTA, which is the "freedom of movement area", you need to deduct a good chunk of the Swiss population too, and arguably part of northern Italy. Almost all the rest are going to be in the border regions of adjoining countries.

bobd22

I suppose the USA has nothing to do with English being a common language people outside UK and USA want to learn to speak?

carcajou

Certainly it does. Access to the American market and the dynamism that brings, as well as US influence making English the language of technology etc, is a key factor, and for many, a driving factor.

But if you aren't in one of those fields where you are using the language every day, it can be hard to keep it up.

carcajou

Yes - I did consider that but it doesn't change the figures very much, so for the purposes of a forum discussion I just let it be. 8.5 million in Switzerland - about 2/3 German speaking - so let's call it 6 million. 1 million in Trentino-Alto Adige of which about 2/3 speak German - so another 600,000. Belgium also has a tiny German-speaking population in Kelmis, which is the old Neutral Moresnet.

Which is why I say all you really need are bilateral Free Movement deals, so (say) those German-speakers in Trentino-Alto Adige can do things like access university in Austria or Switzerland and so on.

Up until about 20 years ago, the Italian-speaking Swiss in Ticino and Grigioni did not have a single Italian-language university in the whole country that they could access, and had to pay international fees to study in Italy or study in a foreign language elsewhere in Switzerland (the University of Italian Switzerland opened in Lugano in the mid-1990s). Not sure about the German-speaking Italians in Alto Adige but it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same situation and had to either study in a foreign language in Rome or elsewhere in Italy, or pay international fees in Austria.

amideislas

That little former colony (banana republic)? You call that "English"?

bobd22

What do you call it then? Variations in all spoken languages.