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what if GB leaves the EU...

what if GB leaves the EU...

Old Oct 12th 2014, 10:00 am
  #76  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
UKIP well right of centre in anyone's book.
yes indeed, I agree with you 100%. I was merely trying to help someone else understand where EMR is coming from as his logic can be quite difficult to follow.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 7:02 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike
EMR sits on the far left, therefore, anyone in the centre left, centre or right of centre is extreme in his view - simples!
I am no where near the far left, I have voted SDLP and Liberal.
I support the current UK government which is centralist and will vote for them again in May.
I am pro the EU but agree that the UK needs to re negotiate the terms of it membership.
I agree with the new MP for Clacton in that I am generally happy with Britain as it is today.
With the obvious exception of his views on Europe.
The problem with those who hold extreme views be they many in UKIP or their counterparts on the left they label any one who opposes them or " far left or Far right ".
UKIPIANS may find this hard to understand that the biggest issue facing the UK to day re the possible risks of another global recession.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 7:17 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by EMR
I am no where near the far left, I have voted SDLP and Liberal.
I support the current UK government which is centralist and will vote for them again in May.
I am pro the EU but agree that the UK needs to re negotiate the terms of it membership.
I agree with the new MP for Clacton in that I am generally happy with Britain as it is today.
With the obvious exception of his views on Europe.
The problem with those who hold extreme views be they many in UKIP or their counterparts on the left they label any one who opposes them or " far left or Far right ".
UKIPIANS may find this hard to understand that the biggest issue facing the UK to day re the possible risks of another global recession.
Oh sorry my mistake - on another thread when someone called you a leftie you said "I am not a leftie, far from it" from which I took it to mean you were admitting your far left leaning, as you were certainly posting things that were not far right in nature.

I have to say that I, like many others, do find your logic hard to follow at times and if I have mistaken you for a far left extremist when you are actually in the centre - I apologise but given the quote above, I hope you can understand how I formed my erroneous conclusion.

Last edited by Garbatellamike; Oct 12th 2014 at 7:29 pm.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 8:16 pm
  #79  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

My perception of EMR's politics, as far as I can tell from BE, was as he has outlined above. He just challenges xenophobic/racist posts, which should not be a party political issue.

"We only want immigrants from xyz countries" (insert personal preferences of speaker) runs counter both to equality of opportunity for the individual, and the best interests of Britain.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 8:34 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by EMR
I am no where near the far left, I have voted SDLP and Liberal.
IN FULL: Nick Clegg's leader's speech to conference
4 days ago ... And one of the biggest, proudest achievements for all of us: giving gay couples the same right to marry as everyone else



The policy of true leaders
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 8:49 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Remembered why this part of the forum is best avoided.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 9:02 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by Fredbargate
IN FULL: Nick Clegg's leader's speech to conference
4 days ago ... And one of the biggest, proudest achievements for all of us: giving gay couples the same right to marry as everyone else



The policy of true leaders
Gay couples having legal rights, the earth is coming to an end as we know it,
The 4 horseman of the apocalypse are riding towards us.
The Uk economy is in collapse.
Riots in the street.

The definition of civil rights for some excludes anyone they do not approve of.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 9:47 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by EMR
Gay couples having legal rights, the earth is coming to an end as we know it,
The 4 horseman of the apocalpse are riding towards us.
The Uk economy is in collapse.
Riots in the street.

The definition of civil rights for some excludes anyone they do not approve of.
I don't agree with much of your rhetoric, but I have to agree with that one.

Sensationalism is practically a British religion. If you look up sensationalism in the dictionary, there's a picture of big ben.

I don't blame the media though. The media publishes what people want to hear, otherwise we wouldn't buy it, because it would be boring.

The problem with our lust for sensationalism is that political parties, legislative agendas and even major referendums are not established on the basis of logic or practical need, but on the basis of whatever frenzy we've whipped ourselves into for our lust for exaggeration. We completely dismiss whether it's even worth debating in favour of finding something wrong with it - and frankly, you can't expect the best results by governing on that basis alone.

The irony is that in the end, it doesn't matter what the resolution is, because whatever the outcome, we'll collectively whip ourselves into another sensationalist frenzy over how bad the outcome is - even if it's a good one.

The middle east is a good example; At first, any involvement is "unacceptable", but when it all goes pear shaped for lack of involvement, then "lack" of involvement is suddenly the criminal negligence of whatever government is presiding. Completely different emotions than before ISIS appeared on the scene. Yet, it's till "bad" no matter what. Just what we want to hear.

UKIP is another good example; A political party established entirely on an exaggerated emotional issue, not having anything to do with practical governance of the country or its interests. Nothing about UKIP suggests they would somehow be any better at governing the country than anyone else - but their tone and what they say is just what a lot of people want to hear, and that's good enough for many - and they would flippantly choose a clearly less-qualified party to run the country on that basis alone.

I need not mention the Scotland independence issue (all emotion, little rationality) - but the upside is that at least the people were allowed to vote on it, and weren't blocked from it - as it should be.

A referendum on EU membership is indeed a worthwhile exercise - regardless of the outcome - but it should be for the purpose of serving Britain's best interests, not just to satisfy a whipped-up sensationalist frenzy over Brussels' distant, elitist bureaucracy, which by the way, can and will easily change...

But if not, leaving the EU won't have the sensationalist disastrous consequences that the Eurocrats would have you believe. In fact, the Germans will still keep their Lidl and Aldi and Müller and everything else they sell to Brits, and Europe will still rely on Britain and Nato for defence, not to mention British energy exports and a whole gamut of crucial trade will continue. Really, nothing would change all that much, except a bit more paperwork for everyone.

In the end, it will come down to simple a matter of whether it makes sense for the UK - as it should be. And frankly, I seriously doubt it will come to Britain leaving the EU.

First, the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, and so the UK will rather easily force enough concessions from Brussels to satisfy most of its Euroskeptic constituents. And at the end of the day, leaving isn't all that practical, really. Will cost a lot, but won't render much tangible difference afterward. Unless of course, Brussels continues to believe it's the dog's bollocks, but then, there's not much in it for the UK is there?
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 10:22 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by amideislas
I don't agree with much of your rhetoric, but I have to agree with that one.

Sensationalism is practically a British religion. If you look up sensationalism in the dictionary, there's a picture of big ben.

I don't blame the media though. The media publishes what people want to hear, otherwise we wouldn't buy it, because it would be boring.

The problem with our lust for sensationalism is that political parties, legislative agendas and even major referendums are not established on the basis of logic or practical need, but on the basis of whatever frenzy we've whipped ourselves into for our lust for exaggeration. We completely dismiss whether it's even worth debating in favour of finding something wrong with it - and frankly, you can't expect the best results by governing on that basis alone.

The irony is that in the end, it doesn't matter what the resolution is, because whatever the outcome, we'll collectively whip ourselves into another sensationalist frenzy over how bad the outcome is - even if it's a good one.

The middle east is a good example; At first, any involvement is "unacceptable", but when it all goes pear shaped for lack of involvement, then "lack" of involvement is suddenly the criminal negligence of whatever government is presiding. Completely different emotions than before ISIS appeared on the scene. Yet, it's till "bad" no matter what. Just what we want to hear.

UKIP is another good example; A political party established entirely on an exaggerated emotional issue, not having anything to do with practical governance of the country or its interests. Nothing about UKIP suggests they would somehow be any better at governing the country than anyone else - but their tone and what they say is just what a lot of people want to hear, and that's good enough for many - and they would flippantly choose a clearly less-qualified party to run the country on that basis alone.

I need not mention the Scotland independence issue (all emotion, little rationality) - but the upside is that at least the people were allowed to vote on it, and weren't blocked from it - as it should be.

A referendum on EU membership is indeed a worthwhile exercise - regardless of the outcome - but it should be for the purpose of serving Britain's best interests, not just to satisfy a whipped-up sensationalist frenzy over Brussels' distant, elitist bureaucracy, which by the way, can and will easily change...

But if not, leaving the EU won't have the sensationalist disastrous consequences that the Eurocrats would have you believe. In fact, the Germans will still keep their Lidl and Aldi and Müller and everything else they sell to Brits, and Europe will still rely on Britain and Nato for defence, not to mention British energy exports and a whole gamut of crucial trade will continue. Really, nothing would change all that much, except a bit more paperwork for everyone.

In the end, it will come down to simple a matter of whether it makes sense for the UK - as it should be. And frankly, I seriously doubt it will come to Britain leaving the EU.

First, the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, and so the UK will rather easily force enough concessions from Brussels to satisfy most of its Euroskeptic constituents. And at the end of the day, leaving isn't all that practical, really. Will cost a lot, but won't render much tangible difference afterward. Unless of course, Brussels continues to believe it's the dog's bollocks, but then, there's not much in it for the UK is there?
spot on
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 10:23 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

I agree the UK electorate is influenced by headlines and not facts.

Again yesterday Farage suggested that up to 75% of UK laws are made in Brussels when clearly this is nonsense.

But as we know facts do not sell newspapers, opinions do.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 10:24 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

I'm afraid I can't get too excited over a cyber personality's personal beliefs on an anonymous internet forum. It would be a bit like believing in fairies, and there are plenty of people posing as fairies out there.

It doesn't mean you can't have a lively and useful discussion in cyber space as long as you don't believe everything you read out there.

And what's wrong with a guessing game at times? This poster posing as Xxxx, is it a man or a woman, a child or an old person or simple someone who has sat in the sun for too long?

On the extremely important subject under discussion in this thread, I believe in democracy, pure and simple. If the majority decide, I go long with it, even if not willingly.

Had I been there, I would have jumped out of the trenches when the whistle was blown to get blown up, I would not have been shot at dawn for reading the Guardian.
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 10:25 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by EMR
I agree the UK electorate is influenced by headlines and not facts.

Again yesterday Farage suggested that up to 75% of UK laws are made in Brussels when clearly this is nonsense.

But as we know facts do not sell newspapers, opinions do.
yes I think you are exactly right and of course there is also the difference in published opinion and public opinion (which can be markedly different at times).
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Old Oct 12th 2014, 11:59 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by HBG
I'm afraid I can't get too excited over a cyber personality's personal beliefs on an anonymous internet forum. It would be a bit like believing in fairies, and there are plenty of people posing as fairies out there.

It doesn't mean you can't have a lively and useful discussion in cyber space as long as you don't believe everything you read out there.

And what's wrong with a guessing game at times? This poster posing as Xxxx, is it a man or a woman, a child or an old person or simple someone who has sat in the sun for too long?

On the extremely important subject under discussion in this thread, I believe in democracy, pure and simple. If the majority decide, I go long with it, even if not willingly.

Had I been there, I would have jumped out of the trenches when the whistle was blown to get blown up, I would not have been shot at dawn for reading the Guardian.
I also believe in democracy. It doesn't always render the results we want, but it's what it doesn't render that's most encuraging.

Unfortunately, many of the beneficiaries of our democracy find it difficult to see all its benefits, simply because it doesn't always render the results they want (as though they are the only ones that count).

IMO, it's more than that though. Under our democracy, we've been fortunate to get >most< of what we want (or at least what we actually need), and have been lucky enough to avoid being subjected to the alternative. For that reason, after a few generations, we've become like spoilt selfish children, throwing temper tantrums whenever we don't get our way, lest we forget it could be a lot worse.

Compare that to those who are still fighting for the right to self-rule and leadership which provides them basic human dignity. They couldn't care less if an MP called a cop a pleb. They have more important things to worry about. No, they care whether they can live in dignity without fear of being beaten, totured, imprisoned or killed simply for having an "opinion" that doesn't suit their masters. I find that to be a rather higher calling, actually. In our rather posh little paradise, we could use a little perspective sometimes.

Finally, as someone who traditionally holds a lot of respect for your views, I'm a little surprised to hear your tone, HBG. Common sense is common sense regardless of who it comes from - and I am always enlightened when it comes from the likes of those I don't always agree with. But lest we not forget those distinctions also apply equally to you and me.

What goes around comes around...

Last edited by amideislas; Oct 13th 2014 at 1:13 am.
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Old Oct 13th 2014, 12:27 am
  #89  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by EMR
I agree the UK electorate is influenced by headlines and not facts.

Again yesterday Farage suggested that up to 75% of UK laws are made in Brussels when clearly this is nonsense.

But as we know facts do not sell newspapers, opinions do.
Okay, I know you don’t want to but let’s go back to your comments of yesterday.

1. You told me to see Saturday’s Daily Mail re an article about Carswell and Farage. Since you read the Daily Mail, I asked you to tell me what it said. Well?

2. You have posted that I have extreme views. I asked you ‘what are my extreme views’? So far I have no answer. Well?

3. You state you saw in TIO that a quote from a Clacton voter said ‘"Yes I voted UKIP, the TORY MP has done nothing for years. "’ Since I do not visit TIO, I do not know from where the quote came from. It undoubtedly exists otherwise you would not have posted it, would you? Can you post the link in your next post, as well as answering my questions?
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Old Oct 13th 2014, 1:07 am
  #90  
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Default Re: what if GB leaves the EU...

Originally Posted by la mancha
Okay, I know you don’t want to but let’s go back to your comments of yesterday.

1. You told me to see Saturday’s Daily Mail re an article about Carswell and Farage. Since you read the Daily Mail, I asked you to tell me what it said. Well?

2. You have posted that I have extreme views. I asked you ‘what are my extreme views’? So far I have no answer. Well?

3. You state you saw in TIO that a quote from a Clacton voter said ‘"Yes I voted UKIP, the TORY MP has done nothing for years. "’ Since I do not visit TIO, I do not know from where the quote came from. It undoubtedly exists otherwise you would not have posted it, would you? Can you post the link in your next post, as well as answering my questions?
Just read saturdays 11th Oct Daily Mail.
I know it may come as a shock to you to read the comments of the new MP for Clacton.
As for your extreme views, you support UKIP and for me that is enough.
I could trawl through your countless posts on immigration and what is wrong with the UK etc etc, but lifes just too short.
One of the TIO regulars posted the comment, maybe in fun but it would not come as a surprise if it was true.
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