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-   -   Unexpected additional residency requirements (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/unexpected-additional-residency-requirements-913863/)

IanWorthington Jun 12th 2018 10:18 pm

Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Had my appointment for my residency visa today and got hit with TWO additional and undocumented requirements:

1. Medical insurance has to be a policy WITHOUT copays.
2. You have to have an established bank account showing movements for at least 3 months.

Anyone seen that before?

Smithy73 Jun 12th 2018 10:55 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by IanWorthington (Post 12514842)
Had my appointment for my residency visa today and got hit with TWO additional and undocumented requirements:

1. Medical insurance has to be a policy WITHOUT copays.
2. You have to have an established bank account showing movements for at least 3 months.

Anyone seen that before?

Yes the bank account must be a Spanish one and you must be able to show an income into your Spanish account over 3 months.
For example in Gandia they want to see around 6000euros in the account and a minimum income of 600euros per person per month.
I got the bank manager to produce me a certificate from the bank for the residency application, only showing the total amount in the account and the income over the 3 months previously.

Yes my lawyer advised us of this 2 years ago. You have to prove that you have a complete medical cover for the first year at least. Which means no part payments made by you for medical treatment and a one year policy that gives you access to a doctors surgery and hospital treatment if needed.

Smithy73 Jun 12th 2018 11:08 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Just checked out your previous posts... You need to show income into a regular Spanish bank account - they have no interest in UK savings accounts etc

It's an administration check box task and you need to play the game if you want to succeed.

If this were me, I would pay 10000euros into my Spanish current account and then on the same date each month pay 1200euros in, with a reference of "Ian Worthington Salary".

Your bank should then be able to produce you a bank certificate for residency process that only shows the total amount and the "income"

If you own property, taking the title deeds to the next residency appointment would help. If you are renting, perhaps the example income above is not going to be enough! Depends on your rent if applicable etc

Smithy73 Jun 12th 2018 11:15 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by IanWorthington (Post 12514842)
Had my appointment for my residency visa today and got hit with TWO additional and undocumented requirements:

The problem is that none of the requirements are documented and they are different in each region!

My Lawyer was particularly helpful, as her husband is a police officer and he could check what was required.
Also the bank manager rang his friend at Gandia police station to check what was required from the bank etc.

A good Gestor should be able to walk you through this process and go with you!

snikpoh Jun 13th 2018 8:28 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12514900)
The problem is that none of the requirements are documented and they are different in each region!

My Lawyer was particularly helpful, as her husband is a police officer and he could check what was required.
Also the bank manager rang his friend at Gandia police station to check what was required from the bank etc.

A good Gestor should be able to walk you through this process and go with you!

You say that but everywhere mentions at least these two requirements;

(1) proof of health cover with no copays
(2) proof of sufficient income and/or savings

Fred James Jun 13th 2018 9:47 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12514900)
The problem is that none of the requirements are documented and they are different in each region!

The reason for that is that the law (Spanish and EU) specifically says that the definition of sufficient resources cannot be a fixed amount.

Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as "sufficient resources", but they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned.

With regard to health cover the only rule is that it must be "Comprehensive". That is open to interpretation and the worst case interpretation is no copayments and no exclusions for pre-existing medical conditions.

snikpoh Jun 13th 2018 9:49 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515080)
The reason for that is that the law (Spanish and EU) specifically says that the definition of sufficient resources cannot be a fixed amount.

Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as "sufficient resources", but they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned.

With regard to health cover the only rule is that it must be "Comprehensive". That is open to interpretation and the worst case interpretation is no copayments and no exclusions for pre-existing medical conditions.

Our local extranjeria DOES allow co-payments - so it all depends who is on the desk and where you go.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 9:52 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by snikpoh (Post 12515061)
You say that but everywhere mentions at least these two requirements;

(1) proof of health cover with no copays
(2) proof of sufficient income and/or savings

Sure, but where does it state what they see as sufficient income?!

The UK Gov website - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residenc...ments-in-spain suggests that any health cover equivalent to the NHS, with a certificate covering Spain for the duration of your residency and then they even suggest a credit card statement showing funds available might be sufficient!!!

Which in my experience couldn't be further from the truth!!
The documentation needs to be in Spanish - So the health certificate needs to be in Spanish, showing cover for 1 year with no co payments etc
They want to see income into a Spanish bank account only! How much depends on the region!
They have no interest in what you may have in a UK bank account

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 9:59 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515080)
The reason for that is that the law (Spanish and EU) specifically says that the definition of sufficient resources cannot be a fixed amount.

Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as "sufficient resources", but they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned.

With regard to health cover the only rule is that it must be "Comprehensive". That is open to interpretation and the worst case interpretation is no copayments and no exclusions for pre-existing medical conditions.

Sure I get that.... but for instance they have VERY clear ideas on what minimum they want to see in your bank account in Gandia! I was told that for 2016 it was 6000euros in the account MINIMUM and income of 600euros per person per month as pensioners!! Which we are not... so then really how much do they want to see coming in, if you are of working age?

mikelincs Jun 13th 2018 10:00 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515088)
Sure I get that.... but for instance they have VERY clear ideas on what minimum they want to see in your bank account in Gandia! I was told that for 2016 it was 6000euros in the account MINIMUM and income of 600euros per person per month as pensioners!! Which we are not... so then really how much do they want to see coming in, if you are of working age?

Only one way to find out, and that is to ask.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:04 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by mikelincs (Post 12515092)
Only one way to find out, and that is to ask.

My lawyer did... they couldn't tell her! The only guidelines were for pensioners
She said for Gandia, the more the better!

Fred James Jun 13th 2018 10:07 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515088)
Sure I get that.... but for instance they have VERY clear ideas on what minimum they want to see in your bank account in Gandia! I was told that for 2016 it was 6000euros in the account MINIMUM and income of 600euros per person per month as pensioners!! Which we are not... so then really how much do they want to see coming in, if you are of working age?

Yes, local offices can have very clear local rules but there is no law to back it up. As I said the law is deliberately vague on this point which is why different areas differ in their interpretation of it.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:12 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515101)
Yes, local offices can have very clear local rules but there is no law to back it up. As I said the law is deliberately vague on this point which is why different areas differ in their interpretation of it.

:goodpost: OK I get what you are saying
I just think it is a shame that they can't at the local office tell you what is expected at your forthcoming appointment.
If I am from the US or elsewhere outside of the EU, they are very clear on what sufficient income is!

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 10:24 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515104)
:goodpost: OK I get what you are saying
I just think it is a shame that they can't at the local office tell you what is expected at your forthcoming appointment.
If I am from the US or elsewhere outside of the EU, they are very clear on what sufficient income is!

The rules are pretty clear and it's all on your Europa website. Rights and obligations:
  • For stays of under three months: the only requirement for Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country.
  • For stays of over three months: EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period.
  • Right of permanent residence: Union citizens acquire this right after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years’ absence from the host Member State.
  • Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence: Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Guarantees are provided to ensure that such decisions are not taken on economic grounds, comply with the proportionality principle and are based on personal conduct, among others.
.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:25 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Two years ago this was all news to me... I had read as much as I could on the internet and then my lawyer kept throwing curve balls.

For example she would say, "have you paid any money into your bank account...?" my reply would be no... there's sufficient in there for the next few years and I can show further funds from my UK account.... Then she enlightened me LOL
My attitude was money is money and this is the EU, what difference if it's in the UK...
The reality was, they are not interested at the appointment... documentation must be in Spanish as they don't speak English and proof of income must be from a Spanish bank.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:30 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515112)
The rules are pretty clear and it's all on your Europa website. Rights and obligations:
  • For stays of over three months: EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period.
.

That's the problem - that is not clear at all - when local offices are looking for minimum specific resources held in a Spanish bank account and according to the above.. it shouldn't matter if you have to pay a little towards your treatment, so long as you can afford to! But at some offices it seems to matter.

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 10:33 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515118)
That's the problem - that is not clear at all - when local offices are looking for minimum specific resources held in a Spanish bank account and according to the above.. it shouldn't matter if you have to pay a little towards your treatment, so long as you can afford to! But at some offices it seems to matter.

Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as 'sufficient resources', but need to take account of the circumstances in each individual case. In any case, the amount deemed to be necessary in order to accept that the EU citizen in question is self-sufficient may not exceed the threshold under which nationals become eligible for social assistance, or the threshold for the payment of a social security pension (Article 8(4), Directive 2004/38). Union citizens retain their residence right as long as they do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State. National authorities can, when necessary, undertake checks as to the existence of the resources and their lawfulness, amount and availability. Self-sufficiency does not need to be acquired on the territory of the Member State of residence.25 Resources available to the EU migrant concerned from a third person must also be accepted.

Link here and your lawyer would have charged you €500:-) http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...08_REV1_EN.pdf

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:37 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515121)
Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as 'sufficient resources', but need to take account of the circumstances in each individual case. In any case, the amount deemed to be necessary in order to accept that the EU citizen in question is self-sufficient may not exceed the threshold under which nationals become eligible for social assistance, or the threshold for the payment of a social security pension (Article 8(4), Directive 2004/38). Union citizens retain their residence right as long as they do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State. National authorities can, when necessary, undertake checks as to the existence of the resources and their lawfulness, amount and availability. Self-sufficiency does not need to be acquired on the territory of the Member State of residence.25 Resources available to the EU migrant concerned from a third person must also be accepted.

Link here and your lawyer would have charged you €500:-) http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...08_REV1_EN.pdf

I don't know about all regions of Spain, but here in Gandia and where the OP is.... that just doesn't work!

My lawyer didn't charge me anything for gaining the appointment or the advice

We got our residency first time - but there is a game to be played if you want to be successful.

It took my neighbours 5 attempts

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 10:42 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515123)

My lawyer didn't charge me anything for gaining the appointment or the advice

Well, he didn't give you advice really:-). The problem is that EU law is EU law, but most local offices don't know the EU law. At the end of the day they can't throw you out and you aren't receiving social assistance.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:45 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515125)
Well, he didn't give you advice really:-). The problem is that EU law is EU law, but most local offices don't know the EU law. At the end of the day they can't throw you out and you aren't receiving social assistance.

She was VERY helpful and without her help I wouldn't have been able to complete this on the first attempt.
She gave more advice and accurate information than is available on the internet!

Proof of official residency is important because of Brexit

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 10:48 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515126)
She was VERY helpful and without her help I wouldn't have been able to complete this on the first attempt

All I can say is that the regulations are pretty clear.
have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence, and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State.

Since you aren't burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, all good.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 10:51 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515127)
All I can say is that the regulations are pretty clear.
have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence, and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State.

Since you aren't burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, no EU country can refuse.

Sure they may be clear - but in the police station in Gandia, they don't follow them! They want you to provide the insurance document for health cover in Spanish and to prove sufficient resources in a Spanish bank account and they have a set idea of what sufficient resources should be.

Fred James Jun 13th 2018 10:54 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Yes, but the law also says they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned. Which gives them carte blanche to make up the rules as they go along.

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 11:02 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515130)
Yes, but the law also says they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned. Which gives them carte blanche to make up the rules as they go along.

And that point goes to this: In any case, the amount deemed to be necessary in order to accept that the EU citizen in question is self-sufficient may not exceed the threshold under which nationals become eligible for social assistance, or the threshold for the payment of a social security pension (Article 8(4), Directive 2004/38)

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 11:08 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Anyhow - the thread was about helping the OP get his residency application passed on the next attempt and helping anyone else that reads this post.
Quoting the EU legislation is interesting - but when the foreigners offices at Police stations involved worked to their own set of rules - it's not helping anyone actually gain residency.
Since the UK seems to be leaving the EU soon (Dec 2020 at this rate) gaining Spanish residency for those that want it, will be important

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 11:20 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515133)
Anyhow - the thread was about helping the OP get his residency application passed on the next attempt and helping anyone else that reads this post.
Quoting the EU legislation is interesting - but when the foreigners offices at Police stations involved worked to their own set of rules - it's not helping anyone actually gain residency.
Since the UK seems to be leaving the EU soon (Dec 2020 at this rate) gaining Spanish residency for those that want it, will be important

It's down to law and not what a local office says. Even then you still aren't a permanent resident and only have the right to reside. If something changes with Brexit, they might want you to have lived in Spain for 5 years (Permanent residency) etc. so nobody knows.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 11:23 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515136)
It's down to law and not what a local office says. Even then you still aren't a permanent resident and only have the right to reside, so until you've actually spent 5 years in Spain, you are not a permanent resident.

Well after 2020, if you don't have it, you may not have the right to reside here at all..

When the local office says "No" because you haven't shown them some bit of paperwork that they were expecting, I think the OP has discovered that it is down to what the local office says!
Judging by one of his previous posts, he has plenty of money in a UK account and a healthcare insurance policy that satisfies the EU law

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 11:39 am

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515138)
Well after 2020, if you don't have it, you may not have the right to reside here at all..

When the local office says "No" because you haven't shown them some bit of paperwork that they were expecting, I think the OP has discovered that it is down to what the local office says!
Judging by one of his previous posts, he has plenty of money in a UK account and a healthcare insurance policy that satisfies the EU law

Sure. My points are only relevant for EU citizens and the OP seems to need a visa, as a non EU citizen anyway. Just saying that unless it's the official law, nothing is sure or clear. Just pointing out EU law.

Fred James Jun 13th 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515136)
It's down to law and not what a local office says. Even then you still aren't a permanent resident and only have the right to reside. If something changes with Brexit, they might want you to have lived in Spain for 5 years (Permanent residency) etc. so nobody knows.

I have lived in Spain for more than 5 years and my certificate gives me the right of permanent residency. If you have had your certificate for more than 5 years you can get a new one confirming that right.

As far as Brexit is concerned the situation of UK nationals in Spain has already been agreed.
  • UK nationals who, before the end of the Implementation Period, are holders of a valid permanent residence document or a valid domestic immigration document conferring a permanent right to reside, will be able to exchange that document for a new residence document free of charge. They may be required to provide proof of identity and undergo criminality and security checks.

snikpoh Jun 13th 2018 12:33 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515083)
Sure, but where does it state what they see as sufficient income?!

The UK Gov website - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residenc...ments-in-spain suggests that any health cover equivalent to the NHS, with a certificate covering Spain for the duration of your residency and then they even suggest a credit card statement showing funds available might be sufficient!!!

Which in my experience couldn't be further from the truth!!
The documentation needs to be in Spanish - So the health certificate needs to be in Spanish, showing cover for 1 year with no co payments etc
They want to see income into a Spanish bank account only! How much depends on the region!
They have no interest in what you may have in a UK bank account

Nope - my extranjeria allows copayments!

Some extranjeria allow bank statements from UK banks!

What you are stating might be in your experience but it certainly is NOT the case everywhere!

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 12:49 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515172)
I have lived in Spain for more than 5 years and my certificate gives me the right of permanent residency. If you have had your certificate for more than 5 years you can get a new one confirming that right.

As far as Brexit is concerned the situation of UK nationals in Spain has already been agreed.
  • UK nationals who, before the end of the Implementation Period, are holders of a valid permanent residence document or a valid domestic immigration document conferring a permanent right to reside, will be able to exchange that document for a new residence document free of charge. They may be required to provide proof of identity and undergo criminality and security checks.

That's my point. People thinking they can quickly go to Spain now, live there for 3 months still won't have a guarantee until all is clear. Being a permanent resident, or registering your residence is different.

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 12:59 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Moses2013 (Post 12515147)
Sure. My points are only relevant for EU citizens and the OP seems to need a visa, as a non EU citizen anyway. Just saying that unless it's the official law, nothing is sure or clear. Just pointing out EU law.

The OP is British!?

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 1:01 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by snikpoh (Post 12515174)
Nope - my extranjeria allows copayments!

Some extranjeria allow bank statements from UK banks!

What you are stating might be in your experience but it certainly is NOT the case everywhere!

Well Gandia doesn't and neither does the area the OP is in!

Smithy73 Jun 13th 2018 1:09 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Someone's else's experience in Valencia - https://movingtovalencia.lbiz.es/nie...r-eu-citizens/

Moses2013 Jun 13th 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Smithy73 (Post 12515194)
Well Gandia doesn't and neither does the area the OP is in!

At the end of the day all people have options and it's down to each individual to decide what they think is right. Just because a policeman in Gandia thinks it's standard practice to overcharge a person for speeding, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

bobd22 Jun 13th 2018 3:47 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Neither of the two things mentioned by the OP are new in anyway but yes different areas do deal differently with both of these points. However a chat with a gestoria in the area you intend applying to as to what you will require to provide for that area will resolve the issue. In my area Torre Del Mar then the health insurance must be a full year policy fully paid up no co payments but no mention of any prior conditions. As for income etc if you own your property outright with no outstanding charfpgws showing proved with escrutira and nota simple then there is no requirement to show any money in your bank account but if it is rented or mortgaged property then you must show something like 4500 euros in the account per individual or 7000 per couple or around 370 Euros per individual per month .
To find out what I needed took a simple email enquiry to a gestoria.

IanWorthington Jun 13th 2018 4:16 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Wow, this thread grew when my back was turned.

They stated they wanted to see resources of eur 15,000, but didn't have a problem when I showed them my statement in gbp. The only problem was that I didn't have a spanish bank account with movements for at least 3 months as well.

I pointed out to him that I'd have to be here illegally to comply with that rule and he said yes!

He also had no problem with a monthly-paid health policy, just that had to be sin copago.

I've now opened a bank a/c. ING have free banking but won't take non-residents. I went with Caixa who charge eur 24/3 months. Not sure if there are better options.

bobd22 Jun 13th 2018 5:32 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
Are you UK / EU citizen?

Fred James Jun 13th 2018 5:36 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 
The law now says that having a credit card with an adequate unused credit limit will be sufficient. Sadly I don't think the local agencies have any knowledge about this.

EsuriJohn Jun 13th 2018 6:47 pm

Re: Unexpected additional residency requirements
 

Originally Posted by Fred James (Post 12515172)
I have lived in Spain for more than 5 years and my certificate gives me the right of permanent residency. If you have had your certificate for more than 5 years you can get a new one confirming that right.

As far as Brexit is concerned the situation of UK nationals in Spain has already been agreed.
  • UK nationals who, before the end of the Implementation Period, are holders of a valid permanent residence document or a valid domestic immigration document conferring a permanent right to reside, will be able to exchange that document for a new residence document free of charge. They may be required to provide proof of identity and undergo criminality and security checks.

I thought the mantra was “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”.


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