Unable to get residencia?
#31
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Unable to get residencia?
Under freedom of movement, EU citizens are only supposed to spend 90 days consecutive in another EU country as a visitor, but that has never been policed. For EU citizens and residents nothing will change, they will still be free to travel as they wish.
The 90/180 day rule is what's important. That's a Schengen thing not a country thing, and it is policed, by stamping passports. It doesn't matter which Schengen border you cross, if the stamp in your passport shows you entered Schengen more than 90 days ago, the exit border check will pick it up.
#32
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: Unable to get residencia?
Kempf
Facts
Kempf is a German national working in the Netherlands as a music teacher. He works 12
hours a week. His income is not high enough to live on so he claims Dutch supplementary
benefit. When he applies for a Dutch residence permit, this was denied on the ground that
his income is not sufficient enough to support himself.Question
Does the fact that Kempf claimed financial assistance in order to supplement his income
exclude him from the provisions of art. 45 TFEU?
Judgment
A person in effective and genuine part-time employment cannot be excluded from art. 45
TFEU merely because he seeks supplementation for his remuneration which is below the
minimum means of subsistence.
So: One the effective and genuine nature of the work is established it is irrelevant whether
supplementary money is obtained from financial assistance from public funds
https://www.studeersnel.nl/nl/document/hogeschool-inholland/international-law/samenvattingen/case-law-workers-lawrie-blum-bosman-lyon-levin/5453922/view
Facts
Kempf is a German national working in the Netherlands as a music teacher. He works 12
hours a week. His income is not high enough to live on so he claims Dutch supplementary
benefit. When he applies for a Dutch residence permit, this was denied on the ground that
his income is not sufficient enough to support himself.Question
Does the fact that Kempf claimed financial assistance in order to supplement his income
exclude him from the provisions of art. 45 TFEU?
Judgment
A person in effective and genuine part-time employment cannot be excluded from art. 45
TFEU merely because he seeks supplementation for his remuneration which is below the
minimum means of subsistence.
So: One the effective and genuine nature of the work is established it is irrelevant whether
supplementary money is obtained from financial assistance from public funds
https://www.studeersnel.nl/nl/document/hogeschool-inholland/international-law/samenvattingen/case-law-workers-lawrie-blum-bosman-lyon-levin/5453922/view
#33
Re: Unable to get residencia?
We have moved between european countries for 10 years and never once stopped at a boarder. When traveling to and from the Uk and Morocco, we were checked for our passports only and they put a stamp on them. So we have no stamps in our passports referencing going from eu country to eu country. How would anyone know if someone is legal or not between eu countries? or for that, even entering the UK or Morocco. We drive, so we don't fly or use the trains maybe that is significant, idk.
I'm not shocked if thousands of people manage to live in europe without papers, what harm is there in it? When I lived in Rome for uni it seemed pretty normal, that was in the early 90's.
I'm not shocked if thousands of people manage to live in europe without papers, what harm is there in it? When I lived in Rome for uni it seemed pretty normal, that was in the early 90's.
#34
Re: Unable to get residencia?
Right, but without connected passport computers at the Schengen perimeter the French don't know whether you had spent more than 90 days in the Schengen zone recently, as you could have left by ferry from Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, or Scandanavia, and so post end of the Brexit transition (the French) would not be aware of any reason to not let you into France even though you were living as an unregistered resident in Spain.
#35
Re: Unable to get residencia?
Right, I know, but without connected passport computers at the Schengen perimeter the French don't know whether you had spent more than 90 days in the Schengen zone recently, as you could have left by ferry from Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, or Scandanavia, and so post end of the Brexit transition (the French) would not be aware of any reason to not let you into France even though you were living as an unregistered resident in Spain.
"How would anyone know if someone is legal or not between eu countries? or for that, even entering the UK or Morocco. We drive, so we don't fly or use the trains maybe that is significant"
#37
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Unable to get residencia?
Kempf
Facts
Kempf is a German national working in the Netherlands as a music teacher. He works 12
hours a week. His income is not high enough to live on so he claims Dutch supplementary
benefit. When he applies for a Dutch residence permit, this was denied on the ground that
his income is not sufficient enough to support himself.Question
Does the fact that Kempf claimed financial assistance in order to supplement his income
exclude him from the provisions of art. 45 TFEU?
Judgment
A person in effective and genuine part-time employment cannot be excluded from art. 45
TFEU merely because he seeks supplementation for his remuneration which is below the
minimum means of subsistence.
So: One the effective and genuine nature of the work is established it is irrelevant whether
supplementary money is obtained from financial assistance from public funds
https://www.studeersnel.nl/nl/docume...n/5453922/view
Facts
Kempf is a German national working in the Netherlands as a music teacher. He works 12
hours a week. His income is not high enough to live on so he claims Dutch supplementary
benefit. When he applies for a Dutch residence permit, this was denied on the ground that
his income is not sufficient enough to support himself.Question
Does the fact that Kempf claimed financial assistance in order to supplement his income
exclude him from the provisions of art. 45 TFEU?
Judgment
A person in effective and genuine part-time employment cannot be excluded from art. 45
TFEU merely because he seeks supplementation for his remuneration which is below the
minimum means of subsistence.
So: One the effective and genuine nature of the work is established it is irrelevant whether
supplementary money is obtained from financial assistance from public funds
https://www.studeersnel.nl/nl/docume...n/5453922/view
If your business is classed by the authorities as a hobby business, that doesn't apply
Self-supporting inactives are supposed to be self-supporting and as such, not need support from public funds.
Freedom of movement was originally all about workers. It was extended to nactives and retirees later on, as a benefit of being an EU citizen, but the basic purpose of the scheme is to have a mobile workforce that can cross borders to go to where there is work available.
#38
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: Unable to get residencia?
It's the same for self-employment. The EU criterion is that it's a "genuine and effective activity, and not on such a reduced scale as to be merely ancillary" or some such wording. As long as your business is considered genuine and effective, under EU rules you qualify for the same income support and benefits as any other resident of that country
If your business is classed by the authorities as a hobby business, that doesn't apply
Self-supporting inactives are supposed to be self-supporting and as such, not need support from public funds.
Freedom of movement was originally all about workers. It was extended to nactives and retirees later on, as a benefit of being an EU citizen, but the basic purpose of the scheme is to have a mobile workforce that can cross borders to go to where there is work available.
If your business is classed by the authorities as a hobby business, that doesn't apply
Self-supporting inactives are supposed to be self-supporting and as such, not need support from public funds.
Freedom of movement was originally all about workers. It was extended to nactives and retirees later on, as a benefit of being an EU citizen, but the basic purpose of the scheme is to have a mobile workforce that can cross borders to go to where there is work available.
Udo Steymann was a German plumber working in the Netherlands. He joined the Bhagwan Community, a religious group who provided for each other's material needs through commercial activity including running a discothèque, a bar and a launderette. He participated in the community by doing plumbing, household duties and other activities. The community would provide for people irrespective of the activities they undertook. He applied for residence to pursue the activity but was refused. When he appealed a reference was made to the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The ECJ held that remuneration may be indirect “quid pro quo” rather than strict consideration for work i.e. work does not need to be paid for in money as long as the worker agrees to receive something else in return.
#39
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Unable to get residencia?
If you look closer there are actually many cases.
Udo Steymann was a German plumber working in the Netherlands. He joined the Bhagwan Community, a religious group who provided for each other's material needs through commercial activity including running a discothèque, a bar and a launderette. He participated in the community by doing plumbing, household duties and other activities. The community would provide for people irrespective of the activities they undertook. He applied for residence to pursue the activity but was refused. When he appealed a reference was made to the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The ECJ held that remuneration may be indirect “quid pro quo” rather than strict consideration for work i.e. work does not need to be paid for in money as long as the worker agrees to receive something else in return.
Udo Steymann was a German plumber working in the Netherlands. He joined the Bhagwan Community, a religious group who provided for each other's material needs through commercial activity including running a discothèque, a bar and a launderette. He participated in the community by doing plumbing, household duties and other activities. The community would provide for people irrespective of the activities they undertook. He applied for residence to pursue the activity but was refused. When he appealed a reference was made to the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The ECJ held that remuneration may be indirect “quid pro quo” rather than strict consideration for work i.e. work does not need to be paid for in money as long as the worker agrees to receive something else in return.
The issue of whether a person should be classed as a worker or not is probably one of the commonest disputes where FoM is concerned. But frankly, I don't think the average Brit early retiree who came to Spain for an easy life and wanted nothing to do with rules and bureaucracy and suchlike, would want to go through the performance of being refused residency and getting a lawyer to take their case to appeal in the ECJ. Apart from anything else, if they've never been registered to work and never been employed, there is no case to be made.
Last edited by EuroTrash; Nov 30th 2020 at 8:18 pm.