bil

Actually, animals do feel a lot more than we give them credit for. For example, dogs understand injustice. Also, when my wife was on her own here and fell over, our dog was most upset and came to her showing that he was very worried.

Fish can show an interesting range of emotional responses. When you keep koi, you realise very quickly that a sick fish put into a hospital tank needs a companion, and I have seen a sick fish that was 'falling over' (a very bad sign, being supported and held upright by its companion.

Animals rape, murder, lie and carry out muggings and warfare. They also can display altruism, which is quite selfless.

Casita

Perhaps they aren't up to date with whats happening, but what the pictures do show is that there do seem to be lots of other acts of sickening animal cruelty that are Spanish spectator sports.

jimenato

The bits in red look like very basic anthropomorphism. How do you know that animals do these things?

jojojojojo

They still do not have human emotions. They have their own set of rules and emotions, but they are different and nothing like ours (just as well)! Ok, some animals that are our family pets may appear to understand and be "part of the family" but essentially they are not capable of the full range of feelings that humans are.

BTW, I'm not implying that humans are better, on the contrary, but all animals are different and they do not think the same as humans and to try to say they do is silly!

Jo xxx

bil

OK

1. Actually, animals do feel a lot more than we give them credit for.

I do not subscribe to the concept that animals are cute little people in fur suits. However, on observing them, directly and indirectly, I do see a lot of behaviour that puts them closer to us than a lot of people think. I have seen data on chimps being taught sign language (they are unable to vocalise adequately), and not only do they understand grammar, they have been observed teaching each other. In addition, they combine words to make other words (a bit like German) without being taught. (The latter example I have seen my parrot do as well.)

I have seen with my own eyes, a gorilla in Gerald Durrell's zoo explain to a woman not just that she should throw it the sandwich she was eating, but precisely how she should go about it.



2. For example, dogs understand injustice.

I have read research that if you are getting a pair of dogs to do tricks for reward, and one is getting a much better reward than the other, the one that is being hard done by will go 'on strike'. It's hardly surprising that this is particularly true with monkeys.


3. Animals rape, murder, lie and carry out muggings and warfare. They also can display altruism, which is quite selfless.

All these are observed in the wild. Mallards rape, chimps mug, and monkeys lie. Killer whales will practise hunting runs on an abandoned beach before going after the seals on the next beach along the following day. In the heat of attack, they will still distinguish between an underwater cameraman and abort an attack on him. They will play with a live seal, carrying out mock attacks on it and throwing it from whale to whale, and then when they tired of the game, instead of leaving the exhausted seal in the water to drown, they took it and threw it onto the beach, so it survived.

David Attenborough's docos and others like them show a very interesting world out there.

All these are

bil

OK. What is silly here is that you are creating a clear line between humans and everything else.

What you need to do is line every animal up in order of similarity to us, starting with humans, then bonobos, then chimps, then gorillas, all the way down to bacteria.

Everything then can be seen to be connected, and to have a certain connection. All feel pain, provided you can define pain as demonstrating a negative taxis to a given stimulus.

All are living beings, all possess a 'soul' to a greater or lesser extent. We used to think that only chimps demonstrated self awareness, but it is now realised that the question was being asked wrongly wrto other animals. It is not thought that elephants can express this, and so can crows.

All this means that your world view needs to be a bit more flexible.

cricketman

And why ignore the plants, they can feel pain too! When certainly they produce a chemical response to damage, just like animals do.

Bullfighting enthusiasts say the bull doesnt feel pain because he is in fighting mode so pumped full of testostorone. In that state you do not feel sorry for yourself, you are just fighting to survive.

Anyone who's ever got into a fight after a few pints will testify that it doesnt hurt until the next day

bil

When damaged plants produce chemicals that will warn other plants to start secreting protective chemicals, and others that will attract predatory wasps etc that will remove the pests.

expat2be

Got a 12 year old at it now in Mexico!

12 Year old bullfighter

Dick Dasterdly

Having been amongst cattle and quite a few bulls in variable moods over many years, I try to analyse the mood of some of these animals in the bullring on the few occasions I watch it.
I would say that the vast majority of these bulls are not in any sort of savage rage, and merely behave as though trying to be rid of something that they initially consider to be minor annoyance,rather than a wicked enemy that fills them with hatred.
The few that really do seem to completely lose self control, tend to hurtle about in all directions,frothing at the mouth, often charging at the guard rail and those behind it or even trying to jump it.
It is almost as though those which go through the normal basic slaughter or torture ritual are partly drugged or to a certain extent domesticated, and probably used to having people around them or close to them on regular occasions, which is probably the case anyway.

surreygirl

I totally agree. Initially they are terrified. They have been taken from a place where they have been grazing peacefully and then transported in a lorry and kept for a few days in enclosures before they go into the ring, when they leap out of the enclosure into the bill ring they initially think they are free. The bull is goaded along the series of enclosures and naturally it is in a highly aroused state of fear it doesnt charge in expecting a fight, it is not a "fighting" bull as such, (that is just a term to make the whole spectacle sound exciting and titillate the fancy of spectators and bullfighting enthusiasts) what the bull feels is terror you can imagine how confused the bull is when it finds itself in an arena with 100´s of people watching and shouting, the bull is confused and ddisorientated The way it dashes out of the run and into the ring makes people believe it is ready for a "fight". The animal despite its size is simply a terrified animal. When these bulls are in fields they are not dangerous at all you can walk among them of course once they start being stabbed with lances etc the animal becomes even more distressed and simply tries to defend itself. It cant do much else it is trapped in a situation it doesnt want to be in and is no match for people with lances and swords. It is quite frankly a disturbing spectacle and even more disturbing is that it is sanctioned and llegitimized by people who should know better. Little wonder than that the wrong messages are sent out to young people. Bullfighing is not only sadistic it is also pornographic and should be delegated to the history book in a civilised society.

cricketman

Not the last time I watched! I know the torero wears tight tights

bil

Ok, that opens up an interesting window. There's certainly references to a sexual element in the arenas in Rome.

As for walking among those bulls. I don't think so. Given that a farmer recently got trampled to death by his own cows, I have got to say 'You first, and me standing by with the camera.

surreygirl

Yes you are quite right, cows with calfs are dangerous.

bil

Bulls too, methinks. I had a tour round a stud, and I looked at one of those massive bulls just standing there, and thought 'I bet he can move a lot faster than me.' It would take an awful lot of money to get me in there with one.