Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

1. I am not confusing anything with anything

2. Riots were not caused by kids wanting free stuff, that is looting it isnt rioting, it is taking advantage of a situation where most of those who ended up in court were heard to mutter "I'm sorry, I don't know why I did it"

Perhaps we should get the Spanish and Greek police, who have direct experience of handling Riots and Rioters, to sort out the minor skirmishes the Met were incapable of resolving.

Fancy having to get written permission to get a water cannon out of the garage - Nuff Sed !!

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

There havent been any riots in Spain probably for 80 years or more

Only demonstrations

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

This thread as turned into a London riot thread, I do agree that they were looters and yes it did loosely spread from that shooting incident. However there was police intelligence that more than suggested that some of the incidents were being orchestrated across the country. It is well known that the Met could have dealt with the initial response and cracked down harder initially to subdue the situation, but had they done so they would still have been criticised. Also Domino you make it sound like the cops on the street were afraid to deal with the situation I doubt that very much it was the High ranking supervisors that were afraid to deal firmly with what was happening at a terrific pace not individual officers.
In my mind no matter if it is the police or the forces they end up in a no win situation. This guy sums it up for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGvQtumNAY

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

Bob, I have never said the policeman in the front line was afraid to deal with the situation - although if I had been one of them I would have been afraid of the non-response from my senior officers, all of whom must have spent a min 2 years on the beat. They were sent out there as a small, and at times ragged, group holding shields. They would appear to have no remit, no response other than to try and move from A to B.
Their management were reckless with the lives of their people and the lives of the general public.
Putting it bluntly - the police failed. It was not the fault of the good honest copper but of the senior officers who were too worried about their promotion prospects.

And it would be difficult for the police to do anything at Tesco's because it would be private property and they would have to receive a valid legal complaint before entering the area to respond.
People Power in the UK is something that makes the beaureaucrats and senior politicians shake with worry. They seem to have "plans" to remove several thousand Brits from Greece but no plans in the event of civil unrest inside the country.
The armed forces have been decimated, it worries me they may ask me back as I have had anti-riot training :eek:

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

is that just semantics or lost in translation ?

why are Riot Police sent out to deal with a Demonstration ?

does Spain have a valid Riot Act unlike the UK ?

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

If you dont know the difference between a riot and a demonstration then you do not know the meaning of democracy. I cannot believe you were a policeman! :ohmy: That explains a lot

When I lived in Barcelona there was a different demonstration every weekend. It is very much seen as a democratic right in Spain

When ETA kills someone, Spain went to war in Iraq, or hundreds of people were killed in the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spaniards took to the streets to demonstrate for peace, and to grieve together

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

perhaps my never having said I was a policeman is getting you confused. Riot training used to be given to others Not the police.

as to democracy, you have already displayed your inability to understand the difference between rioting and looting so why enter demonstrations, all that will happen is you will get even more confused having these big words running around in your head.

.

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

Oh this forum is getting intolerable

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

The Tottenham riots were totally unexpected and came about after an armed drugs dealer was shot dead by police. Tottenham is a quiet place compared with Hackney and Brixton and has a correspondingly small police staff. There were probably no more than 30 police officers on duty locally, faced with thousands of rioters.

Because of modern social networking, it was realised that the riot would quickly spread to other areas and any attempts by the Tottenham police commander at that time to get assistance would have to be met from other places rather than the adjoining Hackney borough, guaranteed to go up in flames next, as it did.

To mobilise the central reserve units in any numbers would take many hours and the Tottenham officers had no choice but to retreat behind their shields (if they had any) while waiting for assistance.

It didn't just take many hours for sufficient reinforcements to arrive, it took a couple of days before officers from Gateshead patrolled Leicester Square.

The UK has policing by consent, only a small number of officers are trained in riot control, there has never been much need for it.

The decision to take action against the undesirables after the riots were over was probably the right one. They are still being picked off now, months later, and the courts are sending most of them down.

Those tactics were better than a bloody battle among the flames at the time, which could well have been lost.

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

The thing is that poltical demonstrations (for whatever reason) can degenerate into a riot - see the Poll Tax riots or, more recently the students demos in London. There are often agitators who inflame matters, but on the whole most people in the demo are there for a cause and not looking to damage property. It's a totally different kettle of fish to what happened in London, Birmingham, Manchester last summer, when a bunch of street kids thought they could get away with what to them was a bit of excitement (to others was terrifying and sheer destruction).
I can understand Bob defending the role of the average policeman, and most people in London were glad they eventually got their act together and snuffed out the riots, otherwise there would have been a lot of deaths from vigilante actions. But there was an apparent delay in determined action of 2 or 3 days from the top, which appeared to let loose the hurricane. :thumbdown:

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

I agree completely. I didn't blame the average policeman either, but it was the lack of effective response, when TV coverage was there for all to see with vanloads of officers parked up two streets away from burning buildings and shops being looted, doing nothing presumably on order from senior command, that encouraged the people who weren't even interested in the original cause of the demonstrations to think they could get away with going out to steal whatever they wanted. Once people in London boroughs were seen to be doing this virtually unchecked, it was bound to go viral and spread to other areas. As for those who said in court that they were sorry and didn't know why they had done it, wasn't that simply because they did get caught and thought they had better make a show of feeling some remorse, probably on the advice of their solicitor?

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

yes steve and Dom there was an undue delay but most posters are correct in saying it was not the Bobby on the street responsible for that it came from the top and they have stated as much, like most things partly due to health and safety. Most cops I know would say b******s to that but the bosses don't as they are afraid of being sued. when does a dispute become a riot?? yet another fine line again but the definition in UK is as follows

twelve or more persons;
present together;
used or threatened unlawful violence (all charged must use);
for a common purpose; and that
the conduct of them (taken together);
was such as to cause;
a person of reasonable firmness;
present at the scene;
to fear for his personal safety.

by the way I still love that video clip from a few good men, mind 22 years a soldier 18 yrs a cop suppose I would lol.

Back to Tesco I see from the news they have now said that that they will pay the people on the scheme, now is this on top of benefit or instead of benefit?

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

If your on benefit/job support allowance and are sent for "enforced free labour" (silly phrase), then just shut up and go. I'm retired from a regular job but still pay a big wack in tax and I don't like the idea of funding people to sit on their ass all day playing the xbox.

Re: Trouble at Tesco.
 

Bob, I know that I for one has always said the pc on the ground couldnt be blamed for the inaction - they are foot soldiers who started growing beards whilst waiting for their managers to pull themselves out of their funk and panic about their pensions and promotion.
There should be some spaces up there for some of the good guys to be promoted into by now, but no! once again the senior management has closed ranks and gone around with a funny handshake.

As to a "Riot", we have no Riot Act, as that was subsumed into subsequent legislation in the 1960's. Such action only makes for a larger minefield to be negotiated because of all the ifs buts whys and wherefores etc that can be drawn into the court case. Perhaps there is a case for another single Riot Act, the preceding one lasted for about 200 years and IMHO was well written.