Rotor

Slander is nothing to worry about ....if you only speak the truth .

DOWNANDOUT

I've created a spreadsheet (with all the costs/gains including 6k refurbishment) and worked out that if we sold the 2 bedroomed flat for 65k we'd make an overall profit of 28k. But in all reality probably a 2 bedroomed apartment (in Costa Del Sol) might just get to the 50k mark and we'd make 13k profit after 3 years of stress .

The only saving grace is that the tenant doesn't get our flat for free.

missile

I hope you are fortunate enough to find a buyer who does not find out about the history. That would put many off buying. Have you factored in advertising, EA + Notary fees to sell and CGT liability?

DOWNANDOUT

I doubt a new buyer would experience the same 'Perfect Storm' issues we have faced and still facing. I think we might have problems ever selling to a potential new landlord considering the anti-landlord legislation which might be passed through in the next few months.

One thing I forgot to mention about this 'Perfect Storm' . The construction company that previously owned our flat was trying to evade paying certain taxes and used our apartment as their registered address . We found out that there was a 11k embargo on our property that we were unaware of and virtually all the amount was for strange building taxes for work done around Spain by this construction company . Had to pay our lawyer to sort it all out for us and cost us over 700 euros to get these charges cancelled via the Suma office .

Now just received another invoice from Suma saying that they are going to bill us 985 euros for the years 2010-2016 for some IBI charges related to the same company- more hassle and expense. I thought there was a 5yr Statute of Limitations on taxes in Spain.

With regards the cost for selling I estimated 28% tax on the sale value and taken into account CGT but didn't include the notary fees . But I did include the solicitor and estate agents fees. We might make a little profit but as I said before , its better than allowing that tenant and his family benefit from subletting our flat while refusing to pay the rent.

missile

If it were me I would not wish to own a property with history where the community president is thought to be a crook.

DOWNANDOUT

Hi missile
Yes, I agree with you . We are even having problems trying to identify the 'Community Owners' now and we've had to pay our lawyer 140 euros just to send a Burofax to the old address I had 10 years ago.

I contacted the local Citizens Advice Bureaux and they said there is no central listing of the various 'Comunidad de Propietarios' for each apartment block (unsure why there isn't).

What happens if there is no longer an operational 'Comunidad de Propietarios' for our apartment block? Do the local town hall takeover responsibilities or is the block left to fall into disrepair?

On another note just received a response from a possible Gestor service (see their response below). Looks like they might be useful to handle our mail just in case we get some other demands for payment for other unknown services that our tenant was contracting to.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our office is provided, and are members of the official Spanish crafts
colleges, with three departments which are:
* Community Management and Real Estate (sales and re-sales),
* Legal & tax advisory,

With regard to the service you require in your message:
* Postal service is offered for: 120€/year (+VAT)
For the reception and custody, until we hand them over to you, of your
correspondence and post (sent by ordinary post to our Head office or by
email)
In case any additional service is required to resolve or manage incidents
with suppliers (water, electric, insurance, community of owners etc.) then
this would be valuated separately, if or when required.
* Declaration of the (yearly obligated) Income tax for non-residents is
offered for: 50€/person (+VAT)
* Offer the property for sale: This service we offer for a % of the
sales price, the % would be discussed and agreed during a personal visit
when/if you decide our agency to list your property.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

missile

Rather than employing a gestor to manage the property, I would seek out a "good" estate agent to make the property ready for sale asap.

I note your intention to allow utilities to be cut off, this will make property difficult to sell.

It would appear you have not been declaring rental income(?). I do appreciate this has been negative, but you may need help to sort this out with the authorities.

DOWNANDOUT

I've been looking at the SUMA statement that said we owed 11k in taxes linked to a separate embargo (1420 euros-raised in 2010 - the time that our tenant and the Community Of Owners decided between themselves to stop paying us rent). It was raised against the company that previously had legal ownership of our flat

It had literally thousands of euros in tax debts due that were billed to our property address and the tax heading said ' 5011 CONSTRUCCION COMPLETA, REPAR. Y CO'

So I googled the tax heading and got a link to this website below and its definitely some business tax for specific construction activities.

2325c8f4-d59e-4f1a-bc40-5118941b5cde (idepa.es)

My question is can unpaid business related taxes for a previous property owner in Spain get transferred to the new property owner?

VFR

I guess a good Gestor will; know the answer to that question.

missile

It appears this debt in relation to the company who was previous owner, i.e. before your father(?)

Has this business ceased trading?

If so the answer is probably yes you could be liable. (Just like in the UK) Debt can be secured against an asset.

Your solicitor ought to have checked and advised your father. Are you using same solicitor? Perhaps need better advice?

DOWNANDOUT

Yes , the company was the previous owner and is still trading and doing work all around Spain . Our lawyer has raised a dispute and now the Suma have responded and are going to credit all the business taxes off (about 9k's worth) but any IBI and Basuras items will need to be paid (which is okay with us as its our liability). I thought the statute of limitations on claiming payment of taxes was 5 years in Spain but it seems that the 5 yrs rolls on from the date of the last demand for payment. So for example , if you have an unpaid IBI bill 10 yrs ago but it was mentioned as still owing before the 5 yr period is up, then the 5 yrs statute deadline is extended again. If the debt collection people are professional , then any old debt will always be payable.

I think only the IBI/Basuras and possibly unpaid works to the building (and possibly the Comunidad) can be passed onto new owners

Found some more shocking stories about squatters

EXCLUSIVE: British expat's squatter hell as family pelted with rocks and threatened with death for almost TWO YEARS in Spain's Malaga - Olive Press News Spain (theolivepress.es)

I really don't think the police will act even if there is an alarm going off (they really can't be bothered). If there is no sign of the break in , the squatters are basically 'home-free' and you'll have to spend thousands going through the courts . And even if you manage to evict them , then another squatter can immediately break back in. The above story shows that the squatter used the same tactics that our tenant did by ensuring he didn't have a lawyer (or frequently dismissing them) which basically means the court process stops. Seems to me that this Okupas is making Spain an awful place to live , never mind owning and renting out a property.

Protest march in Barcelona turns violent after squatter eviction from modernist mansion (spanishpropertyinsight.com)

DOWNANDOUT

I queried the 1420 euros embargo on our flat (via Suma online asking for an itemised breakdown) and some clarification on the 'statute of limitations' concerning old bills .

This is their email response:
-------------------------

"Thank you for contacting with us.

Both the number for the expediente Gestion and Apremio are in the name of the constructor and refer for amounts much higher than what you give us.
You have paid in your name on a voluntary payment period the property tax and rubbish collection tax for 2017, 2018 and 2019 but the total amount is lower than what you give us.

The limit for 4 years applies always beginning the day there is no action from the part of the administration to obtain the payment. Therefore the bill can be issued for a longer time as usually there is an action in order to try to obtain the payment from the previous owner.

We have contacted the local office (in charge of the mattter) and the inform that you will be receiving a bill from 2011 to 2016. However at the moment the bill has not been issued yet.

Hoping to have cleared your clai, we remain at your disposal

------------------------

Seems like they haven't addressed my specific question about providing an itemised breakdown of the 1420 euros that we paid to remove the embargo on our property.

Also , with regards people/okupas breaking into our flat and changing the locks , etc , we have the court case that proves that our tenant was evicted, plus proof that the locks were changed and that the only set of keys was given (by our locksmith) to our Abogados , who locked them away in his office. If anyone is residing in our flat , then it would be clear to the police that they've broken in.

Still no reply to our lawyers letter to the 'Comunidad Propietarios' which is strange . I think the COV19 has probably caused chaos with regards payment of Comunidad and the maintenance of apartment blocks , etc . What happens if many 'unit' owners are unable to pay the comunidad and other utility bills ?

Rotor

Spanish corruption knows no bounds , you`ll seem more cases like this as their economy struggles due to covid.

DOWNANDOUT

I have been reading some more horror stories about squatting rights .

Look at this one:

Property118 | Spain has abandoned any pretence of respecting private property rights - Property118

What I find shocking is that it could happen to anyone's home in Spain (your primary residence not just rented property). You could on holiday , while the squatters move in , scheme their way into getting a utility bill in their name and then trot over to the City Hall and register themselves as a resident in your property. You then lose all rights to your property ownership , your possessions , everything until you pay about 3k euros through the courts and wait for 2 years for it to be heard.

This poor lady really suffered as it was her only home and this section below was truly shocking:

"Mafias are organising much of the squatting. When the mafia know that the day of eviction is coming, they’ll sell the key for €500 to €2,000 to another squatter, and the whole process begins again with a different accused person, so you can lose your house for years. They are no longer looking for abandoned houses. They look for houses in good condition with appliances and facilities, such as nearby schools or parking spaces. My squatters own two cars."

Here are some more scary stories and I don't think any security measures will help unless your willing to pay many thousands in CCTV , motion sensors and 24 hr monitoring/alarm systems. It's just insane!!!

Okupas: The Multifaceted Problem of Spain's Squatters - (barcelona-metropolitan.com) (barcelona-metropolitan.com)

"But it is. If a squatter can prove that he or she has been on the premises for at least 48 hours*, that person has squatters’ rights, or the right of adverse possession.

If you or someone else—a neighbor, for example—happens to report the squatters within 48 hours of their entering the premises, the police can evict them without a warrant. However, many squatters are well-informed: they will inevitably claim that they have been on the premises for longer than this initial period, and it is difficult to prove otherwise. Most homeowners don’t carry proof of ownership on their person when they leave the house, so at least in the beginning, it’s your word against the word of the person who is inside your house.

If the house was empty, does not have a visible for sale or for rent sign, and 48 hours have ostensibly passed, the owner can no longer request immediate eviction by the police, but must start legal proceedings. Lawyers will almost inevitably tell you to file some kind of legal complaint against the squatters, as you can be denounced for coercion if you attempt to simply change the locks or cause them to leave by force.

Some lawyers will advise bringing a criminal case, which is a complicated process involving both investigative and sentencing courts, and must be directed at an individual—a physical person—which requires the identification of each individual involved.

Most lawyers will recommend bringing a civil court case instead, which doesn’t carry the same heavy punishment as a criminal case but can be easier to prove. A civil proceeding does not need to be directed at any individual person, and the proceedings are usually shorter than those of a criminal trial. The civil code was designed to evict renters who don’t pay, but over time has become a tool in the fight against squatters.

The problem is that the civil court proceedings can take as long as a year or more, and the squatters have the legal right to remain on the property until the judge makes a ruling."

DOWNANDOUT

Just to summarise the current situation:

1. No response from the court about offsetting our 4.8k debt to tenant (for our failed first attempt at evicting him) against the 11k debt he owes us on our successful 2nd attempt to evict him.
2. No response to my emails to the local police forewarning them that we would not be renting our property to anyone after the tenant eviction . That if anyone is subsequently found in our property they would have broken in (ie. the only set of keys to the new locks installed by our locksmith is held by our lawyer for safekeeping in his office safe).
3. No response from the local tradesman who said he'd provide a quote for installing an armoured security front door.
4. I did receive a response from the 'Generalitat Valenciana' saying that my father/aunt and their property are not registered on their 'Rental Network ' (Red Alquilar) database. The tenant produced a letter from them (in his appeal) stating that my father and aunt was registered . I have advised the 'Generalitat Valenciana' to request a copy of their letter from the Courts (giving them the relevant case appeal reference and document number). I'm hoping they will pursue this matter further as I suspect they would regard fraudulent use of their name and letter headings a serious matter. If they do act, then our tenant or the 'rental agency' he runs may face criminal charges (fingers crossed that they do act).
5. Awaiting confirmation of SUMA invoice for backlog of debt linked to our flat by previous owner .
6. Have tried contacting various energy companies to advise them that our tenant has been evicted and if any debt is outstanding, we are not liable because we have no contract with them. We still don't know for certain which energy company the tenant contracted to.
7. We will allow the utilities like water and electricity to be cut off . Therefore if squatters do break in , they will have to contract the services and pay the bills , not us.
8. While all the above has been happening we will probably need to pay off any fines for late nil tax returns (even though we haven't received any rent for 10 years). It won't make much difference if we don't submit the returns because when we sell the place they will deduct 3% tax ( just in case the tax returns are not submitted) . I suspect 3% of the sale price and the total fines will not be much different to be honest.
9. Finally , I've tried to put a bit of pressure on the local Mayor and the Spanish PM . There are websites to contact both and I have taken that opportunity to tell them how I feel about their lack of action regarding Okupas. I've also sent copies of my police emails to the Mayor and asked her to contact her local Town Hall depts to ensure that no-one can register themselves as a legal resident of our property. I know this is probably a lost cause but I may as well give it a try.