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To tax or not to tax ?

To tax or not to tax ?

Old Aug 1st 2010, 11:49 am
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Default To tax or not to tax ?

Hello all

We were just discussing our (hopefully soon) move to Spain. Timing will depend on selling our house here in France.
The questions we were asking ourselves are :

In our situation, we are completely legal in France. We haven't lived in the UK for 30 years. We were employed by a UK company, who now pays us a company pension. In France we pay income tax on this (much lower than in the UK) and we are in the national Social Security.
When we sell in France, it is our intention to tell the French tax office that we move out. We then want to take a few bits and pieces and come to Ayamonte where we will rent until we decide whether we want to live in Spain.
The question now is, how does this work for the income tax / social security ? We do not really want to become completely integrated in the Spanish system until we made up our minds that this is where we want to be for several years. Paying tax in the UK or France doesnt feel right, since we wont live there. Setting up things in Spain, with all the bureaucracy involved, seems a bit o.t.t. if maybe we decide Spain is not for us and we move on.
Having said all this, reading this forum quiet often, we do believe that it will be our way of living, but who knows.

Anybody any idea ... where (or nowhere) do we pay income tax etc... ?

Thanks for any info

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Old Aug 1st 2010, 12:13 pm
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Smile Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Annetje
Hello all

We were just discussing our (hopefully soon) move to Spain. Timing will depend on selling our house here in France.
The questions we were asking ourselves are :

In our situation, we are completely legal in France. We haven't lived in the UK for 30 years. We were employed by a UK company, who now pays us a company pension. In France we pay income tax on this (much lower than in the UK) and we are in the national Social Security.
When we sell in France, it is our intention to tell the French tax office that we move out. We then want to take a few bits and pieces and come to Ayamonte where we will rent until we decide whether we want to live in Spain.
The question now is, how does this work for the income tax / social security ? We do not really want to become completely integrated in the Spanish system until we made up our minds that this is where we want to be for several years. Paying tax in the UK or France doesnt feel right, since we wont live there. Setting up things in Spain, with all the bureaucracy involved, seems a bit o.t.t. if maybe we decide Spain is not for us and we move on.
Having said all this, reading this forum quiet often, we do believe that it will be our way of living, but who knows.

Anybody any idea ... where (or nowhere) do we pay income tax etc... ?

Thanks for any info

You have to be rich indeed to pull of that trick! You will be fiscally resident if you spend more than 183 days in the tax year Jan-Dec in Spain. If your pension is exported from UK tax free and taxed in France then the same would apply in Spain. I don't know your age and I should not ask a lady but if you were for instance 66 then you would be of pensionable age in Spain and all the benefits available to a Spanish pensioner would be available to you. A generous tax free allowance for pensioners applies and your pension would be treated as earnings after that (except special more generous rules apply for annuity pensions).

You will have to settle yourself to the fact that Spanish bureaucracy beats any other anywhere and it will take years for you to understand it and integrate into the system. If you want to do it yourself buy some books and settle in for the long haul over the dark winter evenings. The cheat is to copy the Spanish and employ a Gestoria to do all those kind of things for you.

There are lots of threads on this but the first deadline is after 3 months you have to sign on the foreigners register and I would suggest also on the padron. This causes a slight problem in that if you have not made up your mind by then you should also be importing you car to avoid high registration taxes. and you would not want to do that if for instance you were returning to France.

As I said before there are books on this phase and you will probably get one written on here now that you have asked the question but I would follow all the replies made by Fred and perhaps have a look at the latest editions of Bill Blevins and David Searles books.
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Old Aug 1st 2010, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Annetje
Hello all

We were just discussing our (hopefully soon) move to Spain. Timing will depend on selling our house here in France.
The questions we were asking ourselves are :
........................

Anybody any idea ... where (or nowhere) do we pay income tax etc... ?

Thanks for any info

One option would be to establish a residence in Gibralter - I understand the tax regime is very lenient there (indeed many ex-pats who live in Spain have a notional residency in Gibralter. having said that I have no idea how you would go about it - but I'm sure a lot of people do!
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 6:19 am
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Sorry, maybe not clear.
We are not looking for ways to avoid paying tax (would move to Panama in that case) but just wondering what we are supposed to do whilst we are not sure where we are going to live.
We do like Gibraltar every once and a while (once a year) but we are not Costa del Sol lovers.

Last edited by Annetje; Aug 2nd 2010 at 6:42 am.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 6:41 am
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by John & Kath
You have to be rich indeed to pull of that trick! You will be fiscally resident if you spend more than 183 days in the tax year Jan-Dec in Spain. If your pension is exported from UK tax free and taxed in France then the same would apply in Spain. I don't know your age and I should not ask a lady but if you were for instance 66 then you would be of pensionable age in Spain and all the benefits available to a Spanish pensioner would be available to you. A generous tax free allowance for pensioners applies and your pension would be treated as earnings after that (except special more generous rules apply for annuity pensions).

You will have to settle yourself to the fact that Spanish bureaucracy beats any other anywhere and it will take years for you to understand it and integrate into the system. If you want to do it yourself buy some books and settle in for the long haul over the dark winter evenings. The cheat is to copy the Spanish and employ a Gestoria to do all those kind of things for you.

There are lots of threads on this but the first deadline is after 3 months you have to sign on the foreigners register and I would suggest also on the padron. This causes a slight problem in that if you have not made up your mind by then you should also be importing you car to avoid high registration taxes. and you would not want to do that if for instance you were returning to France.

As I said before there are books on this phase and you will probably get one written on here now that you have asked the question but I would follow all the replies made by Fred and perhaps have a look at the latest editions of Bill Blevins and David Searles books.
Thank you for your explanation. You surely seem to know a lot about legal matters, as I have noticed before on this forum. You always seem to give very sensible advice.
We are 52 (hmmm) and 63, so not pensioners yet. Its coming though...

Do I understand correctly that, if we sell up here and make the move in october/november, we will be finishing the tax year in France ? And then as from january/february (if we stay in Spain) we start a tax year in Spain ?

No way we would attack Spanish bureaucracy ourselves. We will be looking for a gestor to do it all. We will also be looking for someone to give us Spanish lessons, since apart from vino tinto ( and manana () our knowledge is not very impressive.
Another thing we are trying to find, is an apartment, long term rent, where one is allowed to smoke ... We know its not healty, but hey, thats life. All the websides seem to add the non smoking sign. Even if we dont sell here, we want to come for 2-2,5 months this winter. I assume these 2 months would count towards the 183 days
Sorry my reply is a bit long. Have the Blevins book but who is Fred ?
Looking forward to replies.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 10:45 am
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Smile Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Annetje
Thank you for your explanation. You surely seem to know a lot about legal matters, as I have noticed before on this forum. You always seem to give very sensible advice.
We are 52 (hmmm) and 63, so not pensioners yet. Its coming though...

Do I understand correctly that, if we sell up here and make the move in october/november, we will be finishing the tax year in France ? And then as from january/february (if we stay in Spain) we start a tax year in Spain ?

No way we would attack Spanish bureaucracy ourselves. We will be looking for a gestor to do it all. We will also be looking for someone to give us Spanish lessons, since apart from vino tinto ( and manana () our knowledge is not very impressive.
Another thing we are trying to find, is an apartment, long term rent, where one is allowed to smoke ... We know its not healty, but hey, thats life. All the websides seem to add the non smoking sign. Even if we dont sell here, we want to come for 2-2,5 months this winter. I assume these 2 months would count towards the 183 days
Sorry my reply is a bit long. Have the Blevins book but who is Fred ?
Looking forward to replies.
Fred is a moderator on here who has the best advice and deepest knowledge on everything Spanish even how to heat and run your pool! You could do a search on his posts for Tax there must be hundreds and every one a gem.

We are stong anti smokers but hey live and let die so can't advise how to find what you want. However the Spanish seem to smoke like chimneys so there must be just what you are looking for available perhaps not on Esuri but downtown in Ayamonte. A number of our friends have either moved downtown or settled there in the first place so it has attractions for expats. You could try and contact Sam who is a fellow smoker or husband Bennie they alternate between Esuri and downtown and have a rental agency.

It is a fact that if you leave UK for Spain the best time to do it is October so that you get a whole half years earnings/pension set against you UK tax allowance and then 3 months in Spain with a full years allowance there. You start from scratch again in Spain in January. Don't know if this is true of France no idea what their tax year is but if it aligns with Spain this loophole is not availabe to you

Last edited by EsuriJohn; Aug 2nd 2010 at 10:52 am.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 1:44 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Hi,
just watching thunderstorms moving in. Would be nice if it gave us some rain. Like Spain, earth is rather dry by now.
Thanks for your advice. French tax year is Jan - Dec so no advantage there. Never mind, we now concentrate on our visit beginning of october and sniff up the atmosphere there.
Already had some pm's in reply to a long(ish) rent, just not sure yet how to deal with pm's. Looking forward finding that out, so if the whole system goes belly up, sorry about that . (not really a computer expert).
Thanks again for your help
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 1:49 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by John & Kath

It is a fact that if you leave UK for Spain the best time to do it is October so that you get a whole half years earnings/pension set against you UK tax allowance and then 3 months in Spain with a full years allowance there. You start from scratch again in Spain in January. Don't know if this is true of France no idea what their tax year is but if it aligns with Spain this loophole is not availabe to you
Thanks for the eulogy John - Karma sent

The French tax year is the same as the Spanish - the calendar year.

Their rules about tax residency are similar to Spain so not a lot of mileage there. In both countries, once you become tax resident under the 183 day rule you are tax resident for the whole year.

So Annetj, as you are still tax resident in France you will have to pay French tax on the whole of your 2010 income next year.

If you move to Spain now or later this year you will not be tax resident in Spain as you haven't spent 183 days here.The clock is reset on Jan 1 so you will not become tax resident in Spain until July but when you pass the 183 days you are deemed tax resident for the whole of the year.

So it is going to be very difficult to avoid being tax resident somewhere. If the French tax man is anything like the UK tax man he will want proof that you are resident somewhere else before he lets go of you!

Going back to the UK can be difficult as they can consider you tax resident after 90 days (trust them to be different!). As your income is from a UK based company, although I imagine is is not taxed in the UK any more, they would become interested in taxing it if you showed any signs of being UK resident and the reason that they pay it gross is probably because you showed them that you were paying tax in France.

So, assuming you do come to Spain with the intention of staying there, the tax changeover should be quite simple. If you try and sit on the fence for a bit it could get rather complicated.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Hallo Fred, nice to meet you.

So you are the expert on about everything. Very lucky for us you live in Spain as your knowledge will come very handy to people like us who dont have a clue about loooooaaaaads of rules and regulations.

We happily pay our tax bills, wherever they are. Indeed, at the moment we dont pay in th UK, and we did have to proof we pay tax in France. Was good for us though, since France was a lot cheaper than the UK.
As far as Spanish taxes are concerned, we are looking into the possibility of setting up a ''trust'' even do we still don't quiet understand the whole of the matter yet. We will dive into that when we spent 2 months in Spain during the winter.

Hope OK with you, if, later on we will ask some more advice concerning our move to Spain. We will (of course) try to find information for ourselves, probably mostly on this forum as it contains a lot of info.

PS. nearly killed ourselves years ago, bypassing Granada

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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 2:13 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Annetje
As far as Spanish taxes are concerned, we are looking into the possibility of setting up a ''trust'' even do we still don't quiet understand the whole of the matter yet.
Don't worry - I don't understand trusts too well either and the Spanish tax man isn't keen on them.

One thing worth considering is ownership of your property in Spain with regard to inheritance tax. There are various ways round it, some involving trusts, but if you intend to leave it to your children then it is often simpler and cheaper to make them co-owners when you buy it. It is very difficult to do that after the purchase without involving big costs and immediate gift tax.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 4:52 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Hi,

Now you started something
Indeed the trust was to avoid to much inheritance tax ; especially since my hub has 2 kids, me no kids and together no kids.
As you can see, if he ''goes'' first, for me to leave things to his kids makes it all a bit complicated and (for them) expensive.
Never considered co-ownership though.
Funny, when one ask info from a reputable company, they still intent to advise people in their advantage. I will dive into exploring this one.

Thanks again very much for your suggestion.
Anne
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 8:32 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Annetje
Hi,

Now you started something
Indeed the trust was to avoid to much inheritance tax ; especially since my hub has 2 kids, me no kids and together no kids.
As you can see, if he ''goes'' first, for me to leave things to his kids makes it all a bit complicated and (for them) expensive.
Never considered co-ownership though.
Funny, when one ask info from a reputable company, they still intent to advise people in their advantage. I will dive into exploring this one.

Thanks again very much for your suggestion.
Anne
Annetje

There are a LOT of clever people on this forum - and you have heard already from some I have a great respect for...

However....

I strongly suggest that you take financial and legal advice from somebody that you can share your full situation with in confidence.

Having moved a few times myself you cant beat talking to an expert - who you feel confidence in to reveal your financial position. There could be various totally legal ways to plan your trip in advance that allows you to for example reset any capital gains allowance, set up trusts and manage investments. Alternatively you can plan your trips to not fall foul of any 183 / 91 day laws etc. Whilst you decide.

There is an advisor in CE who used to write for the local paper - but I forget his name Trevor or something (anybody know?)

Also you could Google a company called Blevins Franks gives advice (no commercial contact)... also try and get the local expat papers - where you may find names.

I can strongly recommend taking professional advice before you move and set up a plan that meets your requirements - this is a major decision you are making and you need to be forewarned (I suggest)

Good luck
Jon
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 9:42 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

It just costs more and more money to be rich theses days.
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Old Aug 2nd 2010, 10:39 pm
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl
I can strongly recommend taking professional advice before you move and set up a plan that meets your requirements - this is a major decision you are making and you need to be forewarned (I suggest)
I totally agree, especially if you are looking at methods to minimise IHT.

Remember of course that even professional advisors are only after the highest fees they can generate and trusts are a good earner as far as they are concerned.

IHT is a very complicated subject and the rules vary enormously from region to region and in many cases, unless we are talking serious money, the IHT liabilities may actually be smaller than you might think.
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Old Aug 3rd 2010, 8:06 am
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Default Re: To tax or not to tax ?

Originally Posted by jdr
It just costs more and more money to be rich theses days.


I think anyone can be richer if they understand the opportuinities and pitfalls of an international move - in advance and make plans. Thers also lots of books out there and the internet can be useful in getting the big picture. IHT as Fred says is a complex affair too... sometimes the worst! Its not good in Belgium and France - as you know Annetje, living there!!

Financial advisers will also help if you are thinking of moving investments - and they will know if there are ways to more effectively move a pension too. I believe there are new rules regarding pensions abroad as well - or coming down the line.

Often the first meeting is free from most professionals - and you get a picture of what you can do... and if you feel confident you can move forward.

Jon

PS anybody know the contact details of the financial/tax advisor that used to write an article in the English press (oracle) and lives on CE?
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