jackytoo

Whatever "advantages" the British get in Spain they pay for it (often through the nose).

Silly to pretend that there are no foreigners sponging in the UK. It is so well known that even French speaking Africans pass through France to get in for the benefits.

Spanish are no different than other Europeans, they all abuse the UK system.

cricketman

I'm not saying that, what I am saying is dont blame the foreigners, if you dont like the UK benefits system then campaign agaist it and vote agaist it if possible at election.

Just like, if Spaniards really wanted a fuller benefits system they could vote for it. We live in democracies!

Btw, I dont believe all this nonsense about Britons paying for their right to live in Spain. Half of them arent even registered as living in Spain! Which means they probably arent paying taxes either. They are basically choosing to be illegal immigrants. If only there were a Spanish equivalent of the Daily Mail...

JLFS

There are "illegal immigrants and illegal immigrants", what I define as an illegal is someone who is in any country without registering, usually working on the black economy, not paying tax, have no intention of returning to their home country and who cannot return to their home country because with not proper paperwork it would be very dodge to get back into the country they "live" in etc.

The other non registered type, could be classed as "unregistered" citizens, mayby have a property in their home country, live on a pension or benefit brought from their homeland, but being spent in Spain or wherever they are "staying" not paying tax, maybe planning to return to their homeland in case of illness or such, but able to leave and enter whenever they wish because they have the right to do travel in and out of the country, paperwork in order.

jdr

But if they live here for more than 3 months and have not registered at the police station and do not have an NIE number their paperwork is not in order.

JLFS

Maybe so but I would not call people like that illegal immigrants.

Maybe a different name for them would be more appropriatem they are more Unregistered than illegal or somthing like that.


I would use the term illegal immigrant to mean that someone should not legally be in the country and if caught could be deported.

I have never heard of a Brit who has stayed longer than 3 months without registering and getting an NIE number being held in detention awaiting deportation.

And they could leave and enter the country through any airport or port openly, using their passport, unlike a real "illegal immigrant".

Maybe somone on the forum knows of such a case of a valid legal passport holder who enterend this country legally and sentenced for not registering.

I know there are incetives to register but are there any penalties for not registering after 3 months?

Lushdaddy

How can you be an illegal immigrant if you are a citizen of a member country of the eu and you are residing in an eu country? It doesn't matter if you pay taxes or not. That has nothing to do with immigration.

JLFS

Quite, I agree nothing to do with taxes. EU can legallyand openly come and go as they please.

My definition of an illegal immigrant is a person who enters a country without meeting the legal requirements of entry to said country, nothing to do with staying longer than 3 months without getting NIE, and as no visa is required for British in Spain, there is not illigality involved.

cricketman

Yes I was using the term "illegal" deliberately to make the point that these British people who do not register or pay taxes are not helpful to Spain and are definitely not "paying their way".

Maybe a better term would be "disenfranchised immigrants" And if they dont pay their taxes perhaps "criminal immigrants".

JLFS

Are you deliberatly or seriously using the word "criminal immigrants" to get a point across, to refer to foreigners to Spain who dont pay taxes?

Once again a very strong choice of words, let me ask you this, if a Spaniard is not paying tax are they also classed a a "criminal" or should it be a "tax avoider", which in my view is a better descrition.
There is hell of a difference between the two.

You dont have to declare that you are not paying yor full whack of tax or any tax to be exact, when you are obliged to disclose if you have got a criminal record.

cricketman

Deliberately avoiding tax is a criminal offence.

So when Mr and Mrs Smith come to live in Fenjirola as a cleaner and pool cleaner and deal in cash only they are being criminals.

I overheard a group of English gardeners talking the other day, gardeners with their own branded van, so not exactly hidden. They were saying that someone they know has just gone autonomo. The guy who looked like the boss said "No that's not for me, you have to pay the social security, and then you have to start paying taxes, its not worth it, better to be cash in hand".

JLFS

You see everything is such black and white, if a Spanish pensioner is "hiding"
a bit of money, and I mean, a small amount, in her sons account to avoid paying some death taxes later on, this is tax avoidance. She is avoiding paying tax on what she should, I admit that.

But by your definition, she is a criminal. Even a real zealot must admit that is is a bit strong.

Well it that is the case I can tell you that a very high percentage of older Spanish people are doing this (maybe not in some famillies, or maybe they are but wont tell).

What you say maybe true, but then if not paying the full whack is "a criminal act" then most of the population of every country in the world is a "criminal".

cricketman

Well yes I get your point and as we know Spaniards love to bend the rules when they get the chance.

I am only illustrating the counter opinion to what jackytoo said that "British people are different to other immigrants because they pay their own way"

Well, many do not, they deliberately avoid paying tax on their earnings, while others are not registered on the padron so their local communities are not getting paid the money in order to upkeep the services for these people.

The incidence of unregistered and unincomed British people in Spain is very high. So it seems that many British people deliberately want to avoid the Spanish authorities to stay hidden in the underground economy

jackytoo

When you quote me as writing the British in Spain "pay their own way" we were discussing benefits. You are aware as well as everyone that no-one can come to Spain or most other European countries to claim benefits like they do in the UK. I don't agree with people working on the black (especially those who are claiming invalidity from the UK) but even if they don't pay taxes they are still paying their way as regards rent and living expenses.

JLFS

Thats it, you dont have to be a tax payer to "pay your own way". What it means to me is that nobody else is paying for you, ie with benefits, and so you are biengs supported by the taxpayer.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in Spain (Spanish included) who do not pay tax in Spain but they are still paying their own way.

cricketman

Erm, no

If someone is deliberately avoiding paying tax on their income, then who do you think is paying for their schools, roads, policeforce, army, airports etc etc.

Paying taxes is paying your own way. I'm not referring to retired people of course, they've paid their 45 years of income tax