Spanish Banks.
Dec 20th 2009, 8:29 am
#1
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Spanish Banks.
I was curious what happens to a debt in Spain if the debtor was to return to the UK.
I came accross this about CAM and there policy of sending threatening letters to the UK.
http://www.international-mortgages.o...tgage-arrears/
I have been reading how Spanish banks are more regulated compared to the UK etc, yet this seems to demonstrate that CAM has not been.
I also find it interesting that the UK courts would view Spanish recovery practise as harsh and courts would heavily criticise there methods.
I copied this.
"In the UK lenders are expected to have demonstrated they have done everything within their power to avoid getting to the point of court action and are heavily criticised if this is not the case".
"CAM’s solution to their own problem; which has occurred because they of all banks in Spain took on risky non resident lending at high loan to purchase prices, undertook poor due diligence on documentation and left many lending decisions in the hands of branch managers who were only targeted on sales is to threaten rather than negotiate and worse than that threaten something that they know will cause severe stress and concern to their clients but in reality is unlikely action they will take".
I came accross this about CAM and there policy of sending threatening letters to the UK.
http://www.international-mortgages.o...tgage-arrears/
I have been reading how Spanish banks are more regulated compared to the UK etc, yet this seems to demonstrate that CAM has not been.
I also find it interesting that the UK courts would view Spanish recovery practise as harsh and courts would heavily criticise there methods.
I copied this.
"In the UK lenders are expected to have demonstrated they have done everything within their power to avoid getting to the point of court action and are heavily criticised if this is not the case".
"CAM’s solution to their own problem; which has occurred because they of all banks in Spain took on risky non resident lending at high loan to purchase prices, undertook poor due diligence on documentation and left many lending decisions in the hands of branch managers who were only targeted on sales is to threaten rather than negotiate and worse than that threaten something that they know will cause severe stress and concern to their clients but in reality is unlikely action they will take".
Dec 20th 2009, 8:49 am
#2
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Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Ontinyent - Valencia region (campo)
Posts: 5,158
Re: Spanish Banks.
If it's a mortgage debt, then there is agreement within Europe that this debt 'follows' you and can therefore be recovered in the 'next' country.
This agreement may well be for any kind of debt, I don't know.
But be warned, one and all, you can't out-run debt these days. It will always be there to haunt you.
This agreement may well be for any kind of debt, I don't know.
But be warned, one and all, you can't out-run debt these days. It will always be there to haunt you.
Dec 20th 2009, 10:11 am
#3
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Re: Spanish Banks.
There are many debt collection agencies around the EU offering recovery.
The main concern though is not people actively avoiding debt, but ones who have fallen onto hard times and try to offer payments lower than original.
I guess in the UK our management of debt is average, companies chase but have to follow strict rules and guidelines.
It seems CAM at least is trying to push Spanish methods in the UK and since there poor management skills got them into this, add some heavy handed threats and the UK judicial system is unlikely to be impressed.
Its not going to make the debt go away, but at least if the UK view the practice as incompetent at least a solution could be found.
The main concern though is not people actively avoiding debt, but ones who have fallen onto hard times and try to offer payments lower than original.
I guess in the UK our management of debt is average, companies chase but have to follow strict rules and guidelines.
It seems CAM at least is trying to push Spanish methods in the UK and since there poor management skills got them into this, add some heavy handed threats and the UK judicial system is unlikely to be impressed.
Its not going to make the debt go away, but at least if the UK view the practice as incompetent at least a solution could be found.
Dec 20th 2009, 4:53 pm
#4
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Joined: May 2009
Location: Alicante province
Posts: 5,753
Re: Spanish Banks.
Many of the UK expats ‘sending their keys back’ to Spanish banks have no other choice, their income has dwindled by 30 %, the value of their houses in Spain has decreased by the same margin, so they cannot sell to repay the mortgage and can’t keep up the payments. And that’s without counting the people who have lost their jobs in Spain.
The majority of them won’t have assets in the UK because they sold up to build their lives in Spain. They’ve gone back to the UK to start from scratch, there is nothing for the banks to recover apart from the repossessed property. Employing an expensive debt recovery agency is just throwing good money after bad.
In most cases the banks over-valuation of the mortgaged property was to blame, they’ve got those over-valued properties on their books now, still at the silly prices they originally lent on, often at 100% or over.
Actually, no one is to blame, only the world recession.
The majority of them won’t have assets in the UK because they sold up to build their lives in Spain. They’ve gone back to the UK to start from scratch, there is nothing for the banks to recover apart from the repossessed property. Employing an expensive debt recovery agency is just throwing good money after bad.
In most cases the banks over-valuation of the mortgaged property was to blame, they’ve got those over-valued properties on their books now, still at the silly prices they originally lent on, often at 100% or over.
Actually, no one is to blame, only the world recession.
Dec 20th 2009, 4:56 pm
#5
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Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Ontinyent - Valencia region (campo)
Posts: 5,158
Re: Spanish Banks.
Many of the UK expats ‘sending their keys back’ to Spanish banks have no other choice, their income has dwindled by 30 %, the value of their houses in Spain has decreased by the same margin, so they cannot sell to repay the mortgage and can’t keep up the payments. And that’s without counting the people who have lost their jobs in Spain.
The majority of them won’t have assets in the UK because they sold up to build their lives in Spain. They’ve gone back to the UK to start from scratch, there is nothing for the banks to recover apart from the repossessed property. Employing an expensive debt recovery agency is just throwing good money after bad.
In most cases the banks over-valuation of the mortgaged property was to blame, they’ve got those over-valued properties on their books now, still at the silly prices they originally lent on, often at 100% or over.
Actually, no one is to blame, only the world recession.
The majority of them won’t have assets in the UK because they sold up to build their lives in Spain. They’ve gone back to the UK to start from scratch, there is nothing for the banks to recover apart from the repossessed property. Employing an expensive debt recovery agency is just throwing good money after bad.
In most cases the banks over-valuation of the mortgaged property was to blame, they’ve got those over-valued properties on their books now, still at the silly prices they originally lent on, often at 100% or over.
Actually, no one is to blame, only the world recession.
Any one else heard this?
Dec 20th 2009, 5:34 pm
#6
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Posts: 12
Re: Spanish Banks.
That's scapegoat in my opinion.
HUMAN GREED.... and in my humble opinion the banks, investment and finance industries where more greedy than most... and they still have the power to make life difficult for individuals they helped get into to debt... (don't tell me about supply and demand - and no-one forces us to buy houses here - they made a fortune form us - everything inflated and % based costs bear no relation to real work rates).
HUMAN GREED.... and in my humble opinion the banks, investment and finance industries where more greedy than most... and they still have the power to make life difficult for individuals they helped get into to debt... (don't tell me about supply and demand - and no-one forces us to buy houses here - they made a fortune form us - everything inflated and % based costs bear no relation to real work rates).
Dec 20th 2009, 6:12 pm
#7
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Re: Spanish Banks.
Actual figures on a forum are often meaningless, but I know people who have found themselves with an income of 500 Euros a month, where their small mortgage and other costs are 400 a month.
Therefore, they’ve gone home, often to adverse circumstances, and have lost the money they invested in their Spanish dream. They’ve done nothing wrong, nor have the banks who lent them money, who could have foreseen the financial chaos that followed?
Of course a lot of villainy went on by some on the margins, but I’m talking about the average, honest person, and the average, honest bank. You will note that I’ve made no mention of property developers or estate agents or solicitors or . . .
Dec 20th 2009, 6:16 pm
#8
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Re: Spanish Banks.
Labelling it as Greed is a little mellow dramatic.
Since Greed would be defined as someone having more of something than one needs.
A person financing the equity in there UK property or selling to move abroad is not greed.
There does seem to be a large number of individuals who got stung and placed themselves well out of there depth, maybe there urge to seek a better life away from doomy Blighty took over there thought process.
Personally the CAM letter makes it quite clear that they would not chase the debt through the courts, after all those who make threats do so because they have no other viable option.
Since Greed would be defined as someone having more of something than one needs.
A person financing the equity in there UK property or selling to move abroad is not greed.
There does seem to be a large number of individuals who got stung and placed themselves well out of there depth, maybe there urge to seek a better life away from doomy Blighty took over there thought process.
Personally the CAM letter makes it quite clear that they would not chase the debt through the courts, after all those who make threats do so because they have no other viable option.
Dec 20th 2009, 6:43 pm
#9
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Joined: Aug 2008
Location: East Anglia - Calpe, Spain - New Forest, UK
Posts: 107
Re: Spanish Banks.
I doubt that very much, but what does it matter? The majority of the people who have moved back had no choice, they could no longer afford to live in Spain. It’s as simple as that.
Actual figures on a forum are often meaningless, but I know people who have found themselves with an income of 500 Euros a month, where their small mortgage and other costs are 400 a month.
Therefore, they’ve gone home, often to adverse circumstances, and have lost the money they invested in their Spanish dream. They’ve done nothing wrong, nor have the banks who lent them money, who could have foreseen the financial chaos that followed?
Of course a lot of villainy went on by some on the margins, but I’m talking about the average, honest person, and the average, honest bank. You will note that I’ve made no mention of property developers or estate agents or solicitors or . . .
Actual figures on a forum are often meaningless, but I know people who have found themselves with an income of 500 Euros a month, where their small mortgage and other costs are 400 a month.
Therefore, they’ve gone home, often to adverse circumstances, and have lost the money they invested in their Spanish dream. They’ve done nothing wrong, nor have the banks who lent them money, who could have foreseen the financial chaos that followed?
Of course a lot of villainy went on by some on the margins, but I’m talking about the average, honest person, and the average, honest bank. You will note that I’ve made no mention of property developers or estate agents or solicitors or . . .
We did nothing wrong, and the bank did nothing wrong, they didn't have to lend us the money did they. I get so fed up of people acting like its a cop out and you've given up when you hand the keys back, hardly! One of the hardest times of our lives. So thank you for saying it how it really is.
Last edited by Dessiree; Dec 20th 2009 at 6:44 pm. Reason: to say thank you for someone being nice for once.
Dec 20th 2009, 8:58 pm
#10
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Re: Spanish Banks.
I get the feeling Expats on here are quite a defensive lot.
There is no shame in misfortune, those who have not experienced misfortune are not skilled, its just taking longer to reach them.
I remember my Uncle back in the 80's and 90's, he was the top dog, my mummy was the poor one.
He had the 6 bed house in an exclusive area, his own business, several holidays a year mainly to Bermuda, sports car and sail boat.
My parents barely had enough cash to survive, debts and a house not owned by them.
Many times my uncle would be envied, until he got too cocky, bought property and lost lots, had to sell the family home due to the debt, wife had to get job in local shop, car went, holidays went, the lot, then followed by ill health.
Basically no matter what people have and how they sugar coat themselves, unless your extremely luck, Miss Fortune will knock at some point in life.
At least Dessiree you had the cojones to try, I'm sure when you where experiencing a new country and culture in Spain others you no spent there days in the same routine, sat at home watching Eastenders.
There is no shame in misfortune, those who have not experienced misfortune are not skilled, its just taking longer to reach them.
I remember my Uncle back in the 80's and 90's, he was the top dog, my mummy was the poor one.
He had the 6 bed house in an exclusive area, his own business, several holidays a year mainly to Bermuda, sports car and sail boat.
My parents barely had enough cash to survive, debts and a house not owned by them.
Many times my uncle would be envied, until he got too cocky, bought property and lost lots, had to sell the family home due to the debt, wife had to get job in local shop, car went, holidays went, the lot, then followed by ill health.
Basically no matter what people have and how they sugar coat themselves, unless your extremely luck, Miss Fortune will knock at some point in life.
At least Dessiree you had the cojones to try, I'm sure when you where experiencing a new country and culture in Spain others you no spent there days in the same routine, sat at home watching Eastenders.
Dec 20th 2009, 9:57 pm
#11
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Posts: 17,507
Re: Spanish Banks.
Whilst I have the greatest admiration for Dessiree for taking such a major setback on the chin,its a fallacy to say that greed,especially by the b(w)ankers has not been a major factor in many of the unfolding tragedies.
Surely the greed of the likes of Fred Goodwin and other bank executives who even now are trying to hold the beleagured taxpayers to ransom for even more exorbitant bonuses,has been a major factor.
Their judgements have clearly been shown to be based far more on greed, than on reality and common sense.
Another major factor is the want it and want it now attitude of the present generation.
Somewhat foolish to say the present situation could not have been anticipated, as we have lived through boom,bubble,bust cycles almost since time began.
Its only the scale of the tragedy thats different, due mainly to the excess attitudes of modern times.
Surely the greed of the likes of Fred Goodwin and other bank executives who even now are trying to hold the beleagured taxpayers to ransom for even more exorbitant bonuses,has been a major factor.
Their judgements have clearly been shown to be based far more on greed, than on reality and common sense.
Another major factor is the want it and want it now attitude of the present generation.
Somewhat foolish to say the present situation could not have been anticipated, as we have lived through boom,bubble,bust cycles almost since time began.
Its only the scale of the tragedy thats different, due mainly to the excess attitudes of modern times.
Dec 21st 2009, 8:08 am
#12
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Re: Spanish Banks.
There is also a lot of pressure put onto the banks from Govt, Mr Brown/Blair will in time be defending there role in all this.
The US may be our allies, but taking on there debt and supporting there wars is taking the loyalty to extremes.
Dec 21st 2009, 8:54 am
#13
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 32
Re: Spanish Banks.
I feel sorry for the people forced to give up their Spanish dream, hand the keys back to the bank and return to the UK with the worry of a mortgage debt hanging over them. I feel less sorry for those who bought late in the cycle - any time from the middle part of the decade or a bit before - because it was very obviously one of those unsustainable housing booms that Spain and the UK have experienced before. If you sold up in the UK making a huge gain and then invested in Spain it was your risk to take. Similarly if you take out a 100% mortgage during a boom when prices have doubled or trebled, you have to be prepared for an adverse outcome.
Looking at the bigger picture in Spain and Britain, the governments and the central banks were mainly responsible; the banks acted badly but it was a "state-sponsored" boom. It suited the authorities to see house prices zooming up - lots of votes and tax revenues - but they must have known that it couldn't last and that when the bubble burst it would be painful. For the UK government to massively expand public spending and public borrowing during the boom years was unforgivable. If Britain had gone into the downturn with a public sector surplus, as it should have done, and spending under control there might be some light at the end of the tunnel now.
(SNIP)
Looking at the bigger picture in Spain and Britain, the governments and the central banks were mainly responsible; the banks acted badly but it was a "state-sponsored" boom. It suited the authorities to see house prices zooming up - lots of votes and tax revenues - but they must have known that it couldn't last and that when the bubble burst it would be painful. For the UK government to massively expand public spending and public borrowing during the boom years was unforgivable. If Britain had gone into the downturn with a public sector surplus, as it should have done, and spending under control there might be some light at the end of the tunnel now.
(SNIP)
Last edited by Mitzyboy; Dec 21st 2009 at 11:16 am. Reason: Link removed, put it in your signature if you wish as long as it complies with posting rules
Dec 21st 2009, 1:32 pm
#14
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Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Born in Barnsley, now in Stoke, heading to Cavafria
Posts: 82
Re: Spanish Banks.
If anyone is in serious financial trouble when they return to the UK, they should check out the solutions available in formal insolvency proceedings - starting with bankruptcy. The UK has probably the most user-friendly court based insolvency system in the whole of Europe. Once you are resident in the UK it will extinguish all debts, with only very limited exceptions. I am happy to point people in the right direction or you can contact any county court, Official Receiver's office or Citizens Advice Bureau.
Dec 21st 2009, 4:35 pm
#15
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Re: Spanish Banks.
Is that the ones you see advertising there service to mange your debts, for a fee and making your credit rating drop so low it'll take decades to gain finance.