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Spain: Paradise lost

Spain: Paradise lost

Old Nov 21st 2009, 9:22 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by cricketman
I dont think it is fair saying the Spanish system is uncivilised either. Many Brits buy in Spain with their eyes closed because they are "living the dream". Buying a legal house is your personal responsibility!

They dont get an independent solicitor. Someone said that couldnt happen in Britain but that is nonsense. If you go into any estate agent in London they will offer you the services of a solicitor who happens to be affiliated with them. A few years ago I naively took this up and found time and again that the solicitor was trying to pull the wool over my eyes regarding unpaid service charge and leasehold length etc.

The difference in Spain and the UK is that Spain has built millions of new properties in the past 10 years or so, many which havent been granted the proper legal steps. UK hardly builds anything.

Why buy now anyway, prices will have lost another 20% or more next year. Best to rent, you can still live the dream. Wished I was renting

Saying that, I do have some sympathy as the ayuntamientos in the South of the county have a terrible record and seem to be a way for some to get rich quick. They are still in the minority though, but hopefully in a few years they wont exist at all.

No-one actually said that spain was uncivilised! Thousands who did actually have a legal property suddenly found out they hadn't when the law was changed. Another two mayors were arrested this month, suppose that means another load of illegal houses

Whatever you think about Spain it cannot be denied that it isn't safe to buy a property right now until it gets it's house in order!

Best to rent. Prices will be at least 20% lower next year, wished I was renting.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by Mad Max
Thats the whole point of my post. The show's presenters stated there are thousands and thousands of 'illegal' property's in Spain. So who the hell do you trust to do their job properly and ensure that your life savings (or a big chunk of it) is not going to end in tears.
You have to remember that the makers of the show probably exaggerate to make the programme worth watching, so I'd take alot of what they say with a pinch of salt. There are, I'm sure alot of illegal properties, but they dont all get demolished, quite a few are made legal in the end. Its a risk, and providing you take all possible measures, you can reduce the risk significantly.

I have friends who are property agents and have lived here for 10 years. They pretty much "know" what is legal and what isnt, certainly in our area. So if you get a good agent, then you can be fairly safe, couple that with a good solicitor and some knowledge of your own. You should be fine

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Old Nov 21st 2009, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by jojojojojojojojojojojojo
You have to remember that the makers of the show probably exaggerate to make the programme worth watching, so I'd take alot of what they say with a pinch of salt. There are, I'm sure alot of illegal properties, but they dont all get demolished, quite a few are made legal in the end. Its a risk, and providing you take all possible measures, you can reduce the risk significantly.

I have friends who are property agents and have lived here for 10 years. They pretty much "know" what is legal and what isnt, certainly in our area. So if you get a good agent, then you can be fairly safe, couple that with a good solicitor and some knowledge of your own. You should be fine

Jo xxx
Yes, they didn't give update reports when the programme was first broadcast, if they had viewers would have realised that many of the problems were no longer problems, but that wouldn't have been such good TV, and to do a further broadcast without an update was totally wrong. as I said originally most of the problems are no longer there, and the woman looking for the house and wanting to pay peanuts is a serial house hunt programme person, she has appeared on others looking for property, so probably there o nly to 'make it more interesting' as she was obviously not really wanting to buy.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 9:55 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

OK get a good real estate agent and a good lawyer. How do you know who is good though?
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 9:59 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by warren d
OK get a good real estate agent and a good lawyer. How do you know who is good though?
I think everyone should rent before they buy and then you get to know who's good and who isnt by word of mouth and experience! I'm glad we didnt buy when we first moved here for that reason. I've learnt so much from being here and getting a "feel" for everyone and everything.



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Old Nov 21st 2009, 10:45 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by cricketman
I dont think it is fair saying the Spanish system is uncivilised either. Many Brits buy in Spain with their eyes closed because they are "living the dream". Buying a legal house is your personal responsibility!
I actually agree that aspects of the Spanish system can be uncivilised, in 30 years here I have used various lawyers and there is not one of them who has done his job right (all but one where recommended), the nearest to getting things right is one who took a really long time to get the problem sorted, when it came to the crunch at the law courts (the other parties lawyer wanted to settle out of court), my lawyer jumped at the chance to say yes... I asked him: 'what about your fees, do they pay them?', his answer... Oh don't worry I won't charge much! which is not the point, why should we wait 4 years to get something back, spend all the time on this that we did and then pay the lawyer for getting the people to pay us back what they owed? (This was a theft and not a property purchase). In many cases I think the desperation was because of the long and dragged out process of getting something to court, as I said we waited 4 years, if we had asked for more than the amount taken then goodness knows how long the court process would have taken from then.... and the defendants lawyer knew that of course, so the system is clogged up and yes, the legal system as other parts of the system is 'uncivilised'.

'Buying a house is your personal responsibility', yes... that is why most people use a lawyer.... because they think the lawyer knows what he is doing and is looking after your interests, in many cases I have found in Spain they don't and are not. If someone comes from another country they expect that their interests are being looked after if they put a lawyer on the case... as they should be and generally are in other countries such as France, Ireland, Germany, Sweden and the UK as well as many others.

I remember one of the first lawyer I went to help with my residencia after the gestor got nowhere, he sent me to the UK to get a stamp on my passport from the Spanish embassy to make my residencia application, when I got there I went into London to find out that this stamp was no longer needed.... I went back to the lawyer and while sitting in his office he got a call (obviously from someone in the same situation as me) and he said 'The regulation has just been changed and there is no need to go to the UK to get your passport stamped so they should cancel their ticket'! I thought but why would he say that until he checked it out and found out what was actually needed, in actual fact if he had checked it out properly I wouldn't have had to spend the money and time going to the UK to get the stamp. This was my first eye opener to the way things where done in Spain on a professional level.

Originally Posted by cricketman
They dont get an independent solicitor. Someone said that couldnt happen in Britain but that is nonsense. If you go into any estate agent in London they will offer you the services of a solicitor who happens to be affiliated with them. A few years ago I naively took this up and found time and again that the solicitor was trying to pull the wool over my eyes regarding unpaid service charge and leasehold length etc.
But you see, this is just it... most of them do get independent solicitors, it didn't make any difference. To be honest, in many cases the issues where not issues that these solicitors would catch anyway as many of these so called legal properties where declared illegal by the Junta, it wasn't the solicitors fault in most cases, the town halls issued the papers to show the properties where legal but these where issued illegally by the town halls.... corrupt system.

I wish people would stop saying these people should get proper solicitors, there are cases where people coming from abroad make mistakes and have none else to blame but themselves but in most cases these people are not to blame, the corrupt system is to blame.... uncivilised system yes because a corrupt system is not a civilised system.

Originally Posted by cricketman
The difference in Spain and the UK is that Spain has built millions of new properties in the past 10 years or so, many which havent been granted the proper legal steps. UK hardly builds anything.
I wonder sometimes what planet you are on cricketman, the UK has been through a building boom over the same period as we have in Spain, not on the same scale granted but to say 'UK hardly builds anything.' is something obviously being said by someone who hasn't got a clue... anyway, this has nothing to do with it and is no excuse for not having a civilised system in the 21st century.

This is being said by someone who preferred Spain the way it was before it got involved in the EU and the Euro... but if we are in it and paying through the nose, at rates that deserve a top class service then that is what people should have.

Last edited by Econ; Nov 21st 2009 at 10:56 pm.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 10:51 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

just out of interest, have many spanish brought houses in these green belt areas, or land grap places in spain,, it seems to be all the english.
Say a spanish family living in madrid want a holiday home near the coast. If so many of these homes have been built, surely some spanish have been caught up in this as well, but you never hear about it.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:00 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by jojojojojojojojojojojojo
I guess they saw a load of foriegners marching into their country, building at will and taking over!!??
Jo xxx
How on earth can they build "at will"? People have only built where they were given full permission to build. If they haven't then of course they should be demolished, but we are talking here of properties "legally built" with full permissions. How can a house be fully legal one year, and five years later it suddenly isn't?
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:03 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by jojojojojojojojojojojojo
Its a risk,

Jo xxx
I think you have summed it up well there, that's exactly what it is.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:14 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by mikelincs
Yes, they didn't give update reports when the programme was first broadcast, if they had viewers would have realised that many of the problems were no longer problems,
The problem with the sewage near La Zennia had been going on for ages, they had loads of time to fix it, but it wasn't until it was shown on TV, videos of it on you tube, before they were shamed into doing anything about it.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:24 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by Econ
I wonder sometimes what planet you are on cricketman, the UK has been through a building boom over the same period as we have in Spain, not on the same scale granted but to say 'UK hardly builds anything.' is something obviously being said by someone who hasn't got a clue...
He writes as if Spain building more properties than France, Germany and UK put together, is something commendable. That's why they are in the deep mierda they are now, it was unsustainable, it was stupid. Everything that UK built was immediately sold, whereas Spain has well over a million new unoccupied properties. I can understand your fervent desire to try and defend Spain, but it makes you look a tad silly when you come out with comments like that.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:38 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by wilki
just out of interest, have many spanish brought houses in these green belt areas, or land grap places in spain,, it seems to be all the english.
Say a spanish family living in madrid want a holiday home near the coast. If so many of these homes have been built, surely some spanish have been caught up in this as well, but you never hear about it.
If you only read the English press then probably no, you won't hear so much of Spanish being caught up in it. It's entirely reasonable that the English press will publish news stories that affect or are of interest to their readers.

Here's an example where probably no British will be affected, as it's in the north of Spain (Cantabria)

El Pais article - 42 houses to be destroyed

Interestingly the houses in the article were declared to be illegal 15 years ago.

Edit: Here's a news article on some illegals being demolished in Madrid:

el Mundo article

If you do a google search on "derribadas en xxxxxx" where x is the Spanish city you should find more.

Last edited by steviedeluxe; Nov 21st 2009 at 11:43 pm. Reason: extra link
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:52 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by agoreira
Everything that UK built was immediately sold, whereas Spain has well over a million new unoccupied properties.
Not quite everything. In some parts of the country there are a lot of unsold new homes and others which were sold under "buy to let" schemes and have since lain unoccupied for much of the time.
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Old Nov 21st 2009, 11:56 pm
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

a very thorny and emotive issue,property legality. a minefield too. we all have stories,horror stories,about friends and their problems with dodgy abagodos and estate agents et al, but one thing you should remember. you can buy a property with all the legal paperwork etc, but come the local elections in your part of the country,out goes one party and in comes the other one,and suddenly your house and land are declared illegal.
the political parties in spain hate each other with a passion,and any chance to reverse or cancel any of the previous administrations plans are seized on gleefully. mayor in garrucha threw his weight behind the apartment complex being built on the front some years ago. oiled the machinery so to speak. up went the complex,most of the apartments sold to brits,election time comes,out goes the mayor,new mayor says top floor of complex illegal,(all bought by british buyers),top floor will have to be demolished. asked if the buyers will get their money back,the answer was "not my problem".
i have moved seven times in the uk,family getting bigger every year,from two bed bungalow to 16 room monstrosity over 20 odd years and never had a problem or ever felt i was going to lose my money. there are fallbacks galore in the uk with laws,rules and regulations up to the yingyang,and a good thing too i think.
you can buy safely in spain,but to me it is a raffle. at the time of writing this,two of my friends are sweating on getting paperwork on houses they have been living in for over five years. they are not pilgrims either.
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Old Nov 22nd 2009, 12:27 am
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Default Re: Spain: Paradise lost

Originally Posted by rachelk
You're right, and I did say UK which includes Scotland, but not sure I'd want to buy there either.
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