Solar Panels?
 

just read through the other thread re:- gas & electric comparisons with UK and Spain. I did a previous post on these costs and am paying exactly £137 per month for both including charges over the whole year. Now Scottish Power have confirmed a rise which will put his up to about £150.00 per month for a 4 bed modern house, which I think is a disgrace! I really don't know how these companies are getting away with it.

Anyway...Hubby wants to install a solar panel on the roof to heat the water, and use a wood burning stove also. I wondered if anyone has done this and if it made a huge difference? I know it is an outlay to start off with:sneaky: But are thinking that we will benefit eventually?
P.S I should say for out home in Spain - not here!

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Wood burning stoves are a great option. They are ethical, burning carbon neutral renewable fuel, and if you pick one with an oven in the top, you can cook stuff too, for free. Plus, if it has a flat top, you can put a casserole on the top as well.

I've read warnings about putting central heating in old fashioned houses in Spain (I can't vouch if this is true) as it can cause problems. I can say this fits in with experiences I have had in the UK, where messing with old fashioned construction can cause problems by heating and drying material that was never designed to take those sort of temperature shifts.

As regards solar heating. They can be a bit expensive, and I am going to run some experiments to see if I can make something a lot simpler and cheaper. Crudely, a long coil of black hose will give a surprising amount of water warm enough to shower with, but I'd like to step it up a bit using a parabolic reflector and a hot water storage unit.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Old aluminium (for lightness if roof mounted) or steel radiators painted black and linked together will provide plenty of hot water. If you plumb two of these into a sealed circuit to heat a hot water storage tank, you would have clean hot water. Of course you would need a circulating pump in there as well, along with a blow off valve for safety, the water in the circuit especially during summer will quickly get overheated.

This system is ideally suited for use in large gardens (where they can be hidden behind hedging) for heating pool water!

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Yeah, the only problem with purely passive is that you need to run a pump, and the capacity is limited. How would you propose to store hot water for night time use?

The design I want to experiment with is as follows. Take a hot water tank. Either this is open construction, with a ball cock, and feeds things via gravity, in the which case it needs to be on the roof (thank goodness for a solid construction flat roof!), or else use a pressurised container with a relief valve, as you describe.

One single heating element works as follows. a copper pipe exits the tank at the bottom and goes out a foot or two horizontally. It then turns vertically up thru 90 degrees, and then goes to the top of the tank so that it is at right angles to the sun. It enters the tank below the water line at the top. You then construct a parabolic trough so that the focus of the parabola is the copper pipe, which is painted black.

A crude test model can be created using ply sections and a thin strip of ply that snaps into them. That ply trough is then lined with baco foil, shiny side out. Ideally cover the open side with horticultural grade glass to stop the wind cooling it.

The tube should heat up to quite a high temp, and the hot water will rise up the pipe and should create a circuit with cold water flowing into the tube at the base. Insulate all the pipework outside the parabolic trough, and the container itself. What will be interesting is how much hot water can be generated in unit time.

This can be quite crudely constructed and on a comparatively small scale for very little cost. This is just to give an idea of how much heat can be generated, and if the passive circulation works. It might be that 22 mm pipe would be better than 15 as the smaller the pipe, the greater the drag on the walls. Also, the smaller the pipe, the more accurate the parabolic focus needs to be. (It's more expensive, but you could split the pipe into four in the centre of the trough as that would give a better heat pickup.

If that construction works, then the troughs can be situated further out and bigger, and have several troughs, radially so that as the sun moves, one trough will always be pointing at the sun.

The height of the container can also be varied to boost heat input.

If it works, then the design can be tweaked, making the troughs from stainless steel (polished) and the supports for the troughs out of steel strip.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

The reason I said that the radators heat a storage tank Bill is because the heated water has to be kept seperate from the hot water (potable) you actually get from the tap. In other words water in the heating circuit is self contained and goes round in a continuous loop via a coil of copper inside of your tank, to the rads (solar panel) via a pump. This copper loop heats the water in the tank via heat transference.

To just heat the water via a solar panel and use it as is, will lead to all sorts of problems, illness and worse.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Well, the corrosion problem relates more to the central heating systems. I'm in a very hard water area, so I think a thruput will be more likely to fur up with calcite deposits than it it to corrode. I did quite a bit of research on this when I kept koi, concerning the risk of copper leaching into the water, but was reassured that a comparatively low KH (temporary hardness) was all that was need to give a protective layer to the inside of the copper pipes.

What health reasons were you thinking of? Water that hits 40C is almost always fatal to most bacteria, and I was thinking this would crank up to in excess of 80C.

I would only ever drink from the cold tap anyway.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

HAve a look at this
http://www.anotherurl.com/therm/Self...ar/default.htm

or more up to date
http://www.lowimpact.org/courseoutli...buildsolar.htm

You might find that it's easier (or harder) than you thought

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Thanks for that. Not being hugely flush with cash, I can't really afford the full kosher version. Plus, I get enormous satisfaction from creating solutions myself.

For example, I think it should be feasible to build a large trough from ply, and line it with mirror tiles, which would give excellent reflection comparatively cheaply.

Plus, you could set it up so that the trough rotates around the central core, which would be made out of multiple lengths of 15mm pipe, because the mirror tiles throw a flat, unfocussed beam. Hmmmm. Actually, if the tiles were mounted on strips of wood, fixed at each end with a peg, they can be rotated as a strip to focus the light better. Obviously 4" tiles would be better than 6, unless the central core was more than 6 inches.

That would save the cost of ply, and make things lighter. In winter as the sun drops, the trough can be rotated so it faces the sun perfectly. It would need a pressure relief valve against overheating, and as it is pressurised from the pump, I could simply plug it into the hot water line in the bathroom, or even the kitchen as long as the service pipes were well insulated.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Blimey Bil :blink:
This is rocket science

Re: Solar Panels?
 

No, it really isn't. It's really simple stuff that anyone here can do providing they can do soldered joints in copper pipe. That plus a bit of third rate carpentry.

Go on the net and see how you make a parabola. Cut out of ply two such shapes and extend them a little to make the lid support. look at the parabola as a semi circle and extend it up a little like a capital U OK? Just make it big enough so that there will be enough square feet of sunlight to heat the water.

Mark the bottom of the U and move outwards marking it at 6-7 inches apart on a line parallel to the edge Drill a hole at each mark. Take a strip of wood, one for each mark, put a screw thru the hole and into the centre of the strip. Repeat at each end so you end up with what looks like a baby's cradle with parabolic ends. The pipe will enter and exit thru the centre point where if it were a semicircle, the point of the compass would go to draw it.

The pipe divides after passing thru the end, splitting and resplitting until a central core is made that obstructs totally all the light falling on it. Then at the other end they all come together and pass out. Make a frame to support it so that it can rotate, and align it along the solar axis. This doesn't even need to be on the roof.

Stick the 6 inch mirror tiles to the wood strips, and when the trough is aligned, rotate each strip so that it focusses the sun onto the central core. When each strip is aligned, fix it with a second screw the hole for that can be drilled when the first row of holes are made. Then staple rubberised cloth over the back to stop air blowing thru, and fit glass sheets to cover the top.

This should cost peanuts by comparison, and while it runs, you can get a steady supply of limitless hot water. If you want, a storage tank can be added to the system, but that would require a bit of planning.

Trust me. Rocket science it ain't.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

You don`t need to drink it to get Legionairres desease it can be caught from tiny unclean hot water droplets being inhaled, the reason they shut down Benalmadena ice rink.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Ah, were you seeing a hot water system as a source of Legionnaires'?

I'm open to correction, but I always thought that was a comparatively low temp colony of bacteria, with the risk being as you say, in the inhalation of aerosol particles. The system I suggest is sealed, so not open to contamination, and the water temps should be so hot as to be self sterilising. A hot water tank, even if not sealed, should be safe as long as the temp gets hot enough.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Of course, thats why I posted the link about the course:D

Re: Solar Panels?
 

My brother got it on holiday and luckily survived.
The specialists said he could of caught it from air con in the hotel, showerhead, or air circulated in the plane, but who knows really.
When they opened the ice rink in Benalmadena it closed shortly after as three people living nearby died if it from the refrigeration process needed for the ice.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Poor air circulation in planes is implicated in DVTs too.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Don't forget you would need planning permission, and for a home made system, that just could be a stumbling block, as all the details and tech spec would be needed.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

It's just a temporary structure, ;) being tested. Hell, just connect it in with compression joints, so you could have it disconnected in 5 minutes flat.

Kidding aside, thanks for the heads up, I'll bear that in mind. Paint it white tho, and I doubt it would be visible.

Remember I am down a tiny, dead end campo road, so that helps.

Instead of one big one, you could easily make several small ones that would be effectively invisible.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

some very inventive people on this forum!
Has anybody had a Company install a panel just to heat the water, and is it successful?:D

Re: Solar Panels?
 

The councils hire police helicoptors to take pics from overhead, and they make more dosh than they spend. ;);)

Re: Solar Panels?
 

People I know were having a new extension built on the top terrace of their house, all permissions were granted, but within an hour of the builders starting the local ayuntiamento were round, their helicopter had seen the work being done and they wanted to see all relevant permissions, also the legal status of the builders, to ensure everything was being done correctly.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

It is? By whom? News to me. Not something that current medics are taught.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Can't remember where I saw it. I think they had run some tests comparing sedentary people with differing air supplies.

I'm not saying that sedentary isn't a contributory factor, but from the report, it appeared that you need both that and the poor air for a good crop of DVTs

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Thanks for the response :) . Sounds like a load of cobblers :)

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Well, we shall see. A lot of ideas get slammed, only to be shown to be correct.

A bit like Atkins. The guy was spot on about High GI carbs being very disadvantageous to your health.

Re: Solar Panels?
 

If I had your dvt study in front of me, I'd have more of an understanding of it. DVTs are mainly related to venous stasis and venous viscosity.

A decrease in O2 pressure (as found in planes) means that there's less O2 available in to the body. If this happens over a long period of time (say living in the Himalayers) then the body adjust its red cell levels, which increases viscosity. It takes weeks for this to happen. Not the length of a flight. :)

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Then viscosity probably isn't the cause.

Remember this is just a hypothesis, with a small amount of contributory evidence that is at yet unverified.

What else would be caused by poor air quality that might predispose one to thromboses?

Re: Solar Panels?
 

Whilst flying?

Re: Solar Panels?
 

I'd be interested to know of issues more connected to poor air quality, and for now ignore the sedentary factors.

Reduction in air quality, increased risk of infection, increase in volatile organics. What might they do that would tip you over the edge to a clot? Or, finish off those predisposed?

Isn't it sometimes a while after the flight that the effects kick in?