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Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Old Dec 26th 2006, 8:57 am
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Default Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

WARNING.

18 months ago, we sold a Spanish-plated vehicle and, misguidedly, let the purchaser take the vehicle when he paid over the money. A week later, when all the offices were open after the annual Feria, we began the process of transfer of ownership with a gestor.

The new owner was given a copy of the full set of vehicle documents and our insurance was still valid. The day before the transfer was officially registered, and unbeknown to us, the new owner was stopped by the police. He did not produce car documents (a full copy set of which we had given him) his Residencia or a driving licence (although we know he had both) and the police let him drive away. The purchaser mentioned nothing about this when we met him in the gestor’s office the day after.

Just recently, a large sum of money was removed from our bank account by AEAT at the request of Trafico. It took nearly a month to discover the reason for this. Apparently, the Guardia Civil consulted the records and sent notices of the fine to our home address for driving without a licence and insurance (€1500).

We received no notification as we do not get post delivered to the house but to a buzon in town. A Boletin was published in the Trafico office in Cadiz, but not knowing anything was wrong, we did not visit and didn’t see it. As a result another €360 added to the fine for admin.

We doubt we shall get any redress, although we have a signed receipt dated a week before the incident, a copy of the purchaser’s Residencia and can prove that during that time the vehicle was fully legal and insured.

A bitter pill to swallow. We should not have let the vehicle out of our possession until a Baja de Matricula had been completed and the purchaser had received his Permiso de Circulacion.

Oh, and by the way, the purchaser is apparently long gone from Spain, so no hope there of confronting him.

I hope none of you gets caught like this!
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 11:10 am
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Ouch !, a costly lesson in the Spanish paperwork system







.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 11:24 am
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Long gone from Spain ?
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 3:02 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

How can this happen?

Spain is an EU country in the 21st century, supposedly trying to faze out the institutionalised corruption and downright dishonesty of some factions of the authoritarian traffic and police services.

Government offices know when they have holiday periods. They are fully aware of the circumstances of some residents with regard to postal services.

How can any authority steal such a large sum of money straight from someones bank account over the xmas period. What ever happened to being presumed innocent until proven guilty? Or is that just blissful ignorance of bygone days in the UK?

Why can't you produce the appropriate evidence to prove your case and have this money refunded?

It's all very well saying that this is just Spain and saying tough sh*t!

Yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow but I'd be damn sure I'd want that pill vomited straight back up again. It makes me so angry that everyone is prepared to just accept the status quo and put it down to experience and part of life in Spain.
Sue the bar-stewards. Take them to the EC of HR if you have to. Spain is an EU country and we are EU citizens. Don't just accept this blatent theft. Would you just accept it in the UK? Not bloody likely you wouldn't. You'd have solicitors letters fired off left, right and centre. I would anyway.

Why should Spain be any different?

Finished.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 3:40 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by billgates
How can this happen?

Spain is an EU country in the 21st century, supposedly trying to faze out the institutionalised corruption and downright dishonesty of some factions of the authoritarian traffic and police services.

Government offices know when they have holiday periods. They are fully aware of the circumstances of some residents with regard to postal services.

How can any authority steal such a large sum of money straight from someones bank account over the xmas period. What ever happened to being presumed innocent until proven guilty? Or is that just blissful ignorance of bygone days in the UK?

Why can't you produce the appropriate evidence to prove your case and have this money refunded?

It's all very well saying that this is just Spain and saying tough sh*t!

Yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow but I'd be damn sure I'd want that pill vomited straight back up again. It makes me so angry that everyone is prepared to just accept the status quo and put it down to experience and part of life in Spain.
Sue the bar-stewards. Take them to the EC of HR if you have to. Spain is an EU country and we are EU citizens. Don't just accept this blatent theft. Would you just accept it in the UK? Not bloody likely you wouldn't. You'd have solicitors letters fired off left, right and centre. I would anyway.

Why should Spain be any different?

Finished.

It happened 18 months ago.
You cant actually break the law and then sue the authorities for fining you.
You must carry all required paperwork with the vehicle, ITV, Road Tax and Insurance which has to be produced at the time on demand.
Although everything was legal, the paperwork was not carried and produced, that was what the fine was for, although I dont know why he didn`t produce it or perhaps he did, but it was pursued because he had no licence.
In the UK I think the law is 7 days to produce it.
Also him driving without a licence voided the insurance and if the car is in your name it is your responsibility.
For some strange reason also any debts to companies etc can be taken from your bank account without your consent.

Last edited by jdr; Dec 26th 2006 at 3:46 pm.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 4:40 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

I think I shall be keeping a very low balance in my Spanish bank account, ensuring I have no overdraft agreement.

On the one hand the Spanish want you to transfer all your money and assets to Spain, but on the other hand they clearly are happy to remove it. I think I'll keep mine safe.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 4:49 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by jdr
Also him driving without a licence voided the insurance and if the car is in your name it is your responsibility.
For some strange reason also any debts to companies etc can be taken from your bank account without your consent.

Yes, you are right, legally it is our responsibility because the transfer of ownership was not complete. Morally it is another matter, in my opinion, but that cuts no ice until we have an opportunity to argue that - I am not holding my breath!

Our local bank manager knew nothing about the payment until we phoned him recently. His Head office had had the demand to pay and in Spanish Law they have a legal obligation to pay from their client's account, if enough money is there.

It is fruitless to lament about how different the system is in Spain - it just IS!
And unless we all get on top of what the law is, and our obligations to comply, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

As Beachcomber said recently in a p.m. - and I hope he won't mind my quoting him - "many people are sitting on a time bomb" . Let's all try to make 2007 the year when things don't appear out of nowhere to bite us in the bum - let's be prepared!

Some people are not keen on "You and the Law in Spain" by David Searl. Can anyone recommend another? Anything to guide us in the right direction would be of help. Thanks.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 4:54 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by gallerie9
Long gone from Spain ?

Yes, he returned to his country of origin. With or without the vehicle we do not know. We know he insured the vehicle a full month after the offence.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 5:41 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by Arco-Iris
Yes, he returned to his country of origin. With or without the vehicle we do not know. We know he insured the vehicle a full month after the offence.

Do you remember a post a while back about someone who had bought a house in Spain, and the day before they went to the notary to complete, the sellers took out three 50,000 euro loans on the property and saddled the new buyers with it???? Its frightening what can happen.

I bought a car several weeks ago and still havent got the papers which were to be sorted by the seller through the gestoria.
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Old Dec 26th 2006, 5:49 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by Arco-Iris
Yes, you are right, legally it is our responsibility because the transfer of ownership was not complete. Morally it is another matter, in my opinion, but that cuts no ice until we have an opportunity to argue that - I am not holding my breath!

Our local bank manager knew nothing about the payment until we phoned him recently. His Head office had had the demand to pay and in Spanish Law they have a legal obligation to pay from their client's account, if enough money is there.

It is fruitless to lament about how different the system is in Spain - it just IS!
And unless we all get on top of what the law is, and our obligations to comply, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

As Beachcomber said recently in a p.m. - and I hope he won't mind my quoting him - "many people are sitting on a time bomb" . Let's all try to make 2007 the year when things don't appear out of nowhere to bite us in the bum - let's be prepared!

Some people are not keen on "You and the Law in Spain" by David Searl. Can anyone recommend another? Anything to guide us in the right direction would be of help. Thanks.
I think you are right, we must be prepared for anything to happen in Spain, You can`t just think "no that will never happen" cos most times it does.
If you have any doubts about things just google them and there is usually help on some site of some kind, but again the laws change so fast you can`t take it as gospel, only as a guide.
Similar to that or any other book printed.
All the legal people and police are worried about is paperwork, the more you have the more brownie points you get with Mr Guardia.
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Old Jan 26th 2007, 1:27 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by jdr
I think you are right, we must be prepared for anything to happen in Spain, You can`t just think "no that will never happen" cos most times it does.
If you have any doubts about things just google them and there is usually help on some site of some kind, but again the laws change so fast you can`t take it as gospel, only as a guide.
Similar to that or any other book printed.
All the legal people and police are worried about is paperwork, the more you have the more brownie points you get with Mr Guardia.
I have some good news to report: after 3 trips to the Jefatura in Cadiz and finally seeing the manager, we now have an Anulación paper authorising the Tax Office to refund us. It has been faxed through to our local office and the money should be paid straight back into our account.

It looked at one point as if her decision could go either way because the law was on the side of the Jefatura. When I asked why the new owner/driver was allowed to drive off after producing no documents, she looked for the police report. Lo and behold, it had the new owner's name and address on it. That seemed to clinch it in ruling in our favour.

Beach - thanks for your support and advice, and thanks everyone else for your positive input.
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Old Jan 26th 2007, 2:11 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by Arco-Iris
I have some good news to report: after 3 trips to the Jefatura in Cadiz and finally seeing the manager, we now have an Anulación paper authorising the Tax Office to refund us. It has been faxed through to our local office and the money should be paid straight back into our account.

It looked at one point as if her decision could go either way because the law was on the side of the Jefatura. When I asked why the new owner/driver was allowed to drive off after producing no documents, she looked for the police report. Lo and behold, it had the new owner's name and address on it. That seemed to clinch it in ruling in our favour.

Beach - thanks for your support and advice, and thanks everyone else for your positive input.
Wow, that is good news. ;-)
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Old Jan 26th 2007, 3:09 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by jdr
I think you are right, we must be prepared for anything to happen in Spain, You can`t just think "no that will never happen" cos most times it does.
If you have any doubts about things just google them and there is usually help on some site of some kind, but again the laws change so fast you can`t take it as gospel, only as a guide.
Similar to that or any other book printed.
All the legal people and police are worried about is paperwork, the more you have the more brownie points you get with Mr Guardia.
Exactly,

This will never be your country ever no matter what you do ....as the majority will never understand the system or speak the language

The only thing that you can do is to obey the law as you see it and stick to it, laws are changing every day faster than you will ever see.
I am very lucky, I married into a Spanish family many years ago and get the same enchufe as they do wherever in Spain, but without enchufe in Spain nothing happens.

As JDR say's the more paperwork you have the more brownie points you have, a friend of mine is an ex Guardia Civil officer and you should see some of the favours they get

Like it or lump it this is their country not ours, and we can never beat the system

Big_john Spain
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Old Jan 26th 2007, 3:22 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

Originally Posted by Arco-Iris
I have some good news to report: after 3 trips to the Jefatura in Cadiz and finally seeing the manager, we now have an Anulación paper authorising the Tax Office to refund us. ....
I'm glad you got a result in your favour.
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Old Jan 27th 2007, 1:20 pm
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Default Re: Selling a Spanish-plated vehicle in Spain.

I am in the process of selling my Spanish car so thought I would pass on the info I have

at a cost of 40€ a solicitor has drawn up a "contracto de compraventa" which in short says that as of the date of signing I have no responsibility over the vehicle and the new owner (details as shown on contract) is liable for fines, insurance etc etc

it was very easy to arrange this I just took all the details of the car and a copy of the new owners passport to the solicitor

Once I receive the cash and we both sign the contract on MOnday it is then down to the new owner to change the paperwork into his name at the trafico office
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