Sattelite dish size
 

Hi all

I have a question that Im sure CE residents can help with. Its not for CE as we have all we need, but for another reason.

I have been told that the freeview channels need a bigger dish outside the UK where the signal strength is lower. Where a small dish is OK in the UK - one needs a much bigger one - 2metres- to get the channels as far out as Spain. Subscription services like Sky broadcast at much higher power and so you can get away with a smaller dish. Free ones are more stingy with their power output... understandably, I suppose.

Sticking with Freeview - is it true that you need a big dish? What can you 'get away' with please?

Im sure I heard somewhere that mobile homes still can get the freeview with a small dish on the roof. However the need is for a friends appartment complex - perhaps you need a big dish.... or perhaps just a big enough amplifier to send the received signal to the appartments. I dont know.

Anyone knows how this works, please??

Thanks in advance
Jon

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

You cannot get Freeview outside the UK as it is a terrestrial broadcast system. You may be thinking of "Freesat" - which is a commercial branding for UK "free-to-air" satelite services bundle. I don't know what the footprint of the satelite they use is but I'msure you couldprobably google it. Nearly all their freesat channels are also available on "Freesat-from-Sky" service bundle which can be received using the normal dish for the astra satelite that Sky uses and a Sky box or similar, although you may need a separate "Freesat-from-Sky" smartcard if you want to get all the Ch4 and CH5 channels.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Hi Mike in CE we have what I thought was called Freeview.... maybe Freesat is the name I should have used.

We bought a cheap decoder - connected it to our community sattelite dish in CE and we have all the BBC's ITV's CNN Bloomberg CNBC Food channel etc etc.... and its free. And no problems about the quality either....

I'm wondering how that can be replicated in a appartment block using the smallest dish possible... and if necessary a amplifier.


Thanks
Jon

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

hi
there are 2 ways with this, first go round and have a look at what other people have and secondly try it, you can only fail :eek:

however, I would not advocate using an amplifier unless desperate. you are better ensuring you have a quality signal at the lnb by mix of dish size and accurate location. most maps show 1.2m dish as the min from Spain unless up in the Barcelona area
if you have a poor signal on a radio turning up the volume doesn't improve the signal. just makes it louder.
also ensure a single run of cable from lnb to receiver with good connections. a joint can cause up to 3db loss in what is already a low level signal.
hope this helps
regards

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Thanks Domino... interesting. Do you have a website please that shows these 'maps' vs dish size?

I understand the volume/poor signal thing - but when you are distributing a 'good' signal to many appartments.... maybe an amplifier is what you need to give everybody a good signal.?? Especially as you say, connections, joints etc can reduce the power. :confused:

So it looks like to get a 'good signal' were talking about a 1.2m dish minimum..... and there might be a requirement for an amp to 'spread it around' the other flats..

Agreed?

Thanks Jon

PS what do mobile homes do to get this?

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

An amplifier is only used on very long cable runs - it cannot make a weak signal stronger.

Most of the dishes in the south of Spain are 1.3m.

The Freesat main channels (BBC ITV etc) are probably going to move to a new satellite within a few months and that could change the situation - probably for the worse!

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

first maps - google for Freesat Footprint (Maps) and Astra 2D Footprint (Maps) and take your pick, they seem at times to be conservative so as not to upset people who do have problems
sri to teach granny but - satellite is a torch shining down on to a large football, the further away from the centre the lower the light level. the larger the dish the greater the signal catch.

dish size - the greatest size you can get in the space available (subject to any planning approvals)

amplifier - once the signal is a good stonking one then feed out to amplifier\splitter\booster with a good steady mains power supply and then distribute around the flat to each room

cables\connectors - always use good quality, ensure each termination is good and cables are to normal max single run (40m IIRC) to ensure minimum of line and connection losses.

sources - most of us can see names we know on google.co.uk, however there are many also in Spain, google.es, they are not backward in these things.
my policy is always use good quality products from reputable suppliers,

hth

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

It's not quite as simple as that. Satellites are designed to focus on specific areas. They could easily cover a large area with no extra power.

The "Sky" encrypted satellites are on fairly wide beams, especially the 2A south beam. You can often receive them on an 80cm dish.

Freesat channels are mainly on Astra 2D which was designed to be highly focused on the UK but for some unexplained reason has a lobe which covers western and southern Spain much better than it does further north. A 2.8m dish is needed in Alicante.

A lot of channels are also on Eurobird 1 and that seems to be slightly more difficult to get than Astra 2D.

The new satellite that is being launched soon (Astra 1N) will probably carry the main Freesat channels which will move from Astra 2D and as yet, no one really knows how that will affect reception.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Hi jon

Try the following :- http://www.dishpointer.com/

Put your location into the Google map, decide which satellite you want and it will give you direction and elevation.

On the left below the map you will see :- Satellites & Dish Sizes

Self explanatory

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Unfortunately it comes up with "Outside footprint" for Astra 2D.:(

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

I think that equates to a BIG DISH :unsure:

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

You cannot get freeview south of about Calais you mean Freesat via a dish. We have a 1.4 m dish and get all the freesat channels just fine we use the same dish and LNB for Sky and it is not as good. Depends on the quality of the tuner in the box and the signal strngth of the channel. Our HD set pulls in BBC1, BBC CH 4 HD channels just fine so 1.4 m and up will work fine in Ayamonte.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

No it doesn't.

It just means that the "official" coverage maps owe nothing to the reality down here in Southern Spain!

Astra 2D was supposed to be a tightly focused beam on the UK but something went wrong as it does have coverage that was not expected - thank God for that! Maybe they dropped it before launch!

Astra 1N is designed to do what Astra 2D did not - restrict access outside the UK. Hopefully it will also fail to do that and some initial "forecast" coverage maps suggest that it will be OK in Southern Spain but we will not know for a few months.

The launch was supposed to be last week but they had a problem and it has been postponed for 20 days. It could be up and working as early as 6 weeks from launch.

If it performs as designed then we will all need to get some really big dishes!

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

further to my earlier posting, you should really ensure you have a multi-way lnb providing a feed to each of the receivers in the apartment.
rgds

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

I remember hanging a Sketchley metal coat hanger out of a porthole and watching terrestial televison perfect signal. The metal hull of the grey painted war canoe acted as a reflecter, even though the coat hanger was only about 10ft above sea level.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

and you believed them ??
actually size doesn't matter - its what you do with it, but you knew that as you know so much about dishes and aerials.
:ohmy:

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

I always liked the 'dishy' ones! :) ... and I'd be quite happy with a small one - as you can see from my comments :)

Thanks for the help the 2 Freds and Domino. And Bryony for your input of a more philosophical nature!! Great that in a day you can get answers to this kind of things... and have a laugh!

Our dish in CE points to Astra 1 and 2. I thought that was it... just get the right decoder - but no! Theres all the angles as well eg Astra 19deg Astra 23deg etc.

It is a shame however that all will change... we will need to retune our community dish. I suppose. I HOPE we wont need to change it - or pay a lot to redirect it etc.

Thanks again

Jon

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

You should be pointing at the Astra 2/ Eurobird satellites at 28.2E. That is where all the UK channels, Freesat and Sky etc live.

When the new satellites go live you will not need to retune or move the dish. All the new satellites will be in the same group as the old ones. If the coverage is as bad as it could, in theory be, you will just get no signal on those channels. The only solution to that is a bigger dish.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Can you define really big?

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Just seen this thread.
To confirm and clarify a few things:

FReeview is the name of the UK's digital terrestrial TV service. It is received via a TV Aerial. It is a UK ONLY service. You cannot receive Freeview in Spain, as the UK terrestrial signals dont reach Spain.

There are channels on Freeview that are PAY channels on satellite.

Spain has its own equivilent of Freeview...simply called Television Digital Terrestrial. YOu can get around 40 digital SPANISH channels via a TV aerial and TDT receiver (either built into your TV or sepertae TDT set top box). There are NO UK channels on TDT. But in most cases, you can change the Audio on certian programmes from the dubbed spanish tot he programmes original English.

Freeview - UK terrestrial TV service with free to air channels
Freesat - UK satellite TV service with free to air channels
Free To air (FTA)- channels that require no monthly payment or viewing card
Free to View (FTV) - channels that require no monthly payment but DO require a viewing card
Freesat-from-sky - a service from sky that allows the reception of FTA and FTV channels.

A sky box with no viewing card is effectivly a free to air receiver.
A sky box with no viewing card will receive the same channels as a Freesat receiver.

UK satellite TV comes from 4 satellites - Astra 2a, 2b,2d and Eurobird 1. These satellites have 7 beams, and each beam is different strengths. Each beam carries a number of channels. HEnce why you can get some UK satellite channels using a Sky minidish in Spain, yet you need bigger dishes for other channels. For example Eurosport1 you can get on a small 60cm dish, but sometimes Eurosport2 is unavilable all dayt even on 2.4m dishes. Also some of the Sky Disney cannels are on similar frequencies to BBC1 and 2. AS are some of the Sky box office and Sky SPorts Interactive services. Also, many FTA channels are on Eurobird 1, which has a nice Pan european beam, much stronger than some pay channel frequencies.

Astra 1 at 19 east (and Astra at 23 east) carries more European channels.
Some communities have this dish pumping into their systems, which provides a few English language new channels.

Yes a new satellite is due up at the end of the month - its launch was postponed last week. Astra 1N is designed for 19 east. It will be used for UK TV for a few years before moving to its permanent place at 19 east. A signal footprint has been released but, for Spain, nothing about if reception will be good or bad can really be said until it is up and working (personally it think its reception will be as per Astra 2D that carries BBC1 and BBC2). They say it will be used for extra and support capacity. Personally, unlike someone said earlier, I cannot see the UK TV channels on Astra 2d (BBC or ITVs) moving over to 1N, but I can see those encrypted ITV1 and Fives moving onto 1N. And maybe the HD versiosn of channel $s group of channels will move on 1N and become FTA. It is also there to provide extra capacity..especially with the Olympics next year. The Olympic broadcast serice is said to have 28 HD streams available..and the BBC would love to carry all of these..and so potentially using 1N as that has enough space.

Define big dish. Well I say a 1.8m or 2.4m dish is big.
Where I am even on a 2.4m dishes not all channels are available 24/7 (BBC3 / 4 for example).
In Cyprus they use 4m dishes and still dont get all channels 24/7!

Here endeth todays lesson...F1 is on!

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

generally dishes range from 0.43 to 1.2m

the bigger the dish the better the signal entering the lnb (subject to being mounted properly) and is a more option technically and cost wise than fitting amplifiers and other gizmos that only increas the "volume" not the quality of signal. as with a car, the better the tuning the better the running.

with the smaller dishes you can only fit a single lnb but that can have up to 8 outputs to feed separate receivers. with the "larger" dishes 0.8m and above you can fit more than one lnb enabling you to switch between satellites without having to motorise the dish.

as I said in earlier posting, the principle is based on a torch shining on a football, the signal is weaker the further away from the "spot" pointed at. on some satellites they make the output "spot beam" which concentrates the beam on to a particular area\region without any viable signal outside that area.

The projected beam footprint for the Astra 1n is shown at Astra 1N footprint however I understand the Spanish authorities will not allow any tv service via satellite that dont cover the Peninsula and the islands, so hopeful the "bulge" will not be there when she starts to work.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Spanish authorities as it is not a Spanish system.

Those rules only apply to Spanish broadcasters.

When 1N moves to its designed position in the future the footprint will change and it may well cover the whole of Spain and the Islands but it won't be transmitting UK TV unfortunately.

In fact there is some opinion that the reason it has that lobe over Portugal is that it is there to give Spanish coverage when it moves but that doesn't help us.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

That footprint map that is linked to is for 1N when it is at 28 east.

When 1N moves to 19 east, its footprint will be repositioned also. In fact most of the footprint will cover France and Spain and the bulge you see is for the Islands. Thats what 1N and its footprint was designed for - when it is located at 19 east. Thats what the bulge is for - which you can see if you move the footprint on that link down towards France and west so its center is on south west France.

I have no idea what "Spanish authorites" have to do with 1N though.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Thought I'd post on this thread as it seems to have the attention of some knowledgeable people ;)

Has anyone being having trouble with Sky (freesat) reception lately. Last week we had an interruption on 4 seperate days at exactly the same time 10:33 BST/11:33 CET of around 5-10 mins. Interestingly the 'FIVE' channels (I have a seperate card fitted in my Sky Box) still worked.
Anyone else experience the same thing/have an explanation? Does it have something to do with the new satellite referred to on a previous post?

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Yes. Not sure if it's the same though. I lost BBC1 (101), BBC2 (102) and ITV2 (118) and maybe others. It was only for about an hour then they all came back - strange!

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Nothing to do with any new satellites.
Nothing to do with your setups
Nothing you can do about it really.
This happens for two week, in March / April and October / Nov, can last for about 15-20 minutes around 1030-1130.
And has been happening sice I have been in Spain doing satellite systems!

Its all to do with the positioning of the sun.
Twice a year the sun is directly behind the satellites.
And its energy basically swamps the weaker signals.

It will have an effect on the "free to air" version of Five, but not the "free to view" sky card versions of five - so as you dont lose five you will be using the stronger "FTV" versions that is not affected by this.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Thanks very much for that info - that's really interesting. Thought we were about to loose our service at one time - you've set my mind at rest.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Hi "The GUY", welcome to our little remote corner of Andalucia that is Ayamonte. We struggle down here to get consistent help and advice on problems associated with Sat reception of UK channels.

I am lucky to have a Panasonic Freesat TV and a Sky + box fed from a quad lnb. 2 feeds are used elsewhere and two come down into the lounge for three inputs so I have to make a choice if I want to use "record" on the sky box or watch an HD programme on the TV. This is a pain just as a programme is about to start, as last night, when a scenic programme on Ireland came on great to watch in HD, and the last use was to record a whole afternoon of moto gp.

About 6 mths ago my Sky man left saying he would get me a small self powered gizmo which could split one feed into two and sit behind the TV out of sight. Not seen since and this is frustrating. What is the gizmo called, can they be bought in Spain are they expensive, and most important do they work?

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Helllooooo
.
Theya re called stackers, and allow one cable to run two feeds. One unit is powered, and it sends the two signals down the cable at two different frequencies.
HOWEVER, you will encounter loss / drop in signal with stackers, so it may not perform as you want it to, especally on those critical / weaker BBC and ITV frequencies.

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

How big is a stacker and would it sit nicely behind the TV? Is it mains powered? Can I get one around here? I would only need about 1m of cable from the stacker to the Sky box to provide the 2 feeds for that and keep a separate downfeed for the HD feed to the TV. Would this work?

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Small.
One unit would hid nicely behind the TV - its about the size of an external USB hard drive unit.
Then the other peice of kit goes at the dish.

However, I think I have misunderstood your orignal question:

The STACKER takes TWO FEEDS from the LNB and pushes them down ONE cable, then splits the again.

It does not take ONE FEED and splits them into two cables.

I do not know of ANYTHING that does this - as a single feed from the LNB can only take one of the four frequency polarisations at a time...no good if you wnt ot watch a vertical frequency and a horizontal channel at the same time - as the two polarisation will not be able to be fed from the single LNB output.

So not even a cable splitter will do the job - again due to the single output only feeding one of the four groups at a time - and not good for receivers or LNBs if two "receivers" are both sending power down the same cables...

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

Why not use a 'small' distribution board?

We take all four signals from the LNB, to the distribution board, and out to as many feeds as you want.

Simples!! (but not cheap and not small).

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

A Quatro LNB and a "multiswitch" unit is the best thing for multiple feeds.
4 cables from the quatro, to the multiswitch.
multiswitch come with 8 12 or 16 outputs.

using a 4 output LNB and splitting the cables / signals to 5 or more receivers will not work correctly - due to the 4 groups of frequencies that the receivers look for - and can camage LNBs and receivers, especially if one receiver is using a VH (ie sky news) frequency and another on the same cable is looking for a HL frequency (like BBC2)

but if you have an offset dish, why not try an octo LNB...?

Re: Satellite dish size - other options?
 

Hello All, I'm just wondering, has anyone ever thought about or tried adding several smaller dishes together (in an array) instead of a huge single dish? ((...other than NASA!)) Kind Regards!

Re: Sattelite dish size
 

that will not work.
one "big dish" is required to receive certain frequencies.
Smaller dishes will not receive those frequencies - and so using multiple dishes will be pointless as they all will be too small to receive those frequencies.