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Residency rights can be lost!

Residency rights can be lost!

Old Aug 6th 2020, 10:55 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

Originally Posted by snikpoh View Post
Confused again.

The extranjeria is a department of the National Police and so is, usually, located in the National Police Station.

I suspect it is usually the extranjeria with EX23 for existing residents
The National Police do have a extranjero department which in the past was where we went for residencia. However the Extranjero Office is a regional immigration office and seperate to the national police. You only need to go there if it is a first time application and that is where you now have to present the EX20 and evidence of healthcare and sufficient income etc. Once they are satisfied they give you an authorisation letter to take to national police with your passport and copy of it a photograph 32mm x 26mm EX23 form completed and a form 790-12 stamped to show payment made. They then take the photo and attach it to EX23 along with the 790-12 and fingerprint you. They then inform you when you can collect the TIE card. If simply exchanging the green card for a TIE you don't need to bother with the first phase or ex20. If you read through the link I attached it explains what to do in each situation i. e. Initial application, exchange of temp for temp TIE card or exchange of Temp for permenant TIE card.
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Old Aug 7th 2020, 3:28 am
  #17  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

Originally Posted by Chipmonk View Post
How can you be a fiscal resident if you spent 5 years out of country? Your fiscal residence would surely be in UK over that period of time
Wishful thinking appears to be clouding your ability to think logically!

The WA rules on absence are to enable people to travel for extended periods if they so wish and thinking beyond the narrow constraints of Europe there are many places in the world where you can stay for a lot longer than 6 months without having even think about becoming resident, some you can stay in almost indefintely.

In the scenario you envisage, or is that perhaps are salivating over, you are forgetting one vital thing and that is being out of the country (for however long) does NOT absolve you from submitting an annual Spanish tax return so it's dead in the water right there.

Furthermore, you can only be fiscally resident in one place at a time so if you tactically switched to UK to take advantage of less onerous taxation on an inheritance or whatever then to return to Spain you would have to reapply for residence and comply with the requirements of the day.

The only way your idea would make any sense would be if the financial advantage of being taxed in UK outweighed the cost of becoming resident in Spain again but under third country national rules. ​​​​​​

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Old Aug 7th 2020, 6:40 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

Originally Posted by Notdunroamin View Post
Wishful thinking appears to be clouding your ability to think logically!

The WA rules on absence are to enable people to travel for extended periods if they so wish and thinking beyond the narrow constraints of Europe there are many places in the world where you can stay for a lot longer than 6 months without having even think about becoming resident, some you can stay in almost indefintely.

In the scenario you envisage, or is that perhaps are salivating over, you are forgetting one vital thing and that is being out of the country (for however long) does NOT absolve you from submitting an annual Spanish tax return so it's dead in the water right there.

Furthermore, you can only be fiscally resident in one place at a time so if you tactically switched to UK to take advantage of less onerous taxation on an inheritance or whatever then to return to Spain you would have to reapply for residence and comply with the requirements of the day.

The only way your idea would make any sense would be if the financial advantage of being taxed in UK outweighed the cost of becoming resident in Spain again but under third country national rules. ​​​​​​
I understand your argument but I ( mistakenly according to you) thought you were allowed to be out of spain for 5 years consecutively and if returning you could keep your Spanish residency. So presumably you can not be a resident in uk if you live for say 2 years there? And any income would not be declared in uk but Spain? I thought 183 days established tax residency so that over 6 months in UK would incur tax ? Maybe you could provide a link?
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Old Aug 7th 2020, 9:01 am
  #19  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

I've wondered about this as well. The wording of the WA doesn't make it very clear, it actually says
Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be lost only through absence from the host State for a period exceeding 5 consecutive years.
I foresee confusion because the concepts of domicile and tax residency are different in different countries. "Absence" may mean, being absent from the country but remaining domiciled there; and if you remain domiciled there that may mean you have to declare worldwide income there even though you may be paying your tax elsewhere. Or, if you temporarily cut your ties with the country and become domiciled somewhere else, is that still classed as "absence" and you retain your right to residence, or is it classed as having left and you have given up your right to residence?

Originally Posted by Chipmonk View Post
So presumably you can not be a resident in uk if you live for say 2 years there? And any income would not be declared in uk but Spain? I thought 183 days established tax residency so that over 6 months in UK would incur tax ? Maybe you could provide a link?
If you spend 2 years in the UK, HMRC will most certainly consider you resident and will require you to pay tax to them. But depending on circumstances you can end up dual tax resident, which can be complicated. Normally you declare worldwide income in the country where you are primarily resident, and in the other country you only declare income that's taxable there - from being employed there for instance. Then usually there's a dual taxation convention that sets out what sources of income are taxable in which country, and ensures that you don't pay two full lots of tax on the same income. Brexit won't change that, but it's a separate question from how absences will affect residency rights.
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Old Aug 7th 2020, 9:38 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

That is why I questioned it. Originally I was of the opinion ( my ex works for a lawyer and is bilingual) that you could be absent for 2 years( this was in 2016) from Spain. During that time you were effectively a non-resident and only tax on spanish affairs. Any other income was collected by UK and not submitted on spanish declaration. The 2 year absence simply meant that on return you did not need to redo registration. However, the previous poster seems fairly authoritative about the situation which means there must be an official link somewhere
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Old Aug 7th 2020, 10:30 am
  #21  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

Well I am very much hoping that your original opinion is correct Chipmonk because I had qualified for permanent residency in France and got my CdS, but I left early last year and to take up full time employment in the UK, intending to go back to France next year after I'd reached retirement age (could go back this year as it's turned out because I lost my job a few months ago due to Covid). I went to the French tax offfice before I left to explain my plans, and they asked whether I would regard France as my main country of residence. I found that hard to answer because what exactly does it mean, but I said that if I was living and working full time in the UK then the UK would consider me resident there, and they said OK well in that case, declare your worldwide income in France up to the date you leave and after that, only declare any income that's taxable in France (which in my case is zero). But, Spain may not be the same.
If it turns out my right to reside has been cancelled by me changing domicile it'll mean I'll have to apply for visas and stuff to go back, it won't be the end of the world but I am hoping it won't come to that. So I hope you are right Chipmonk, it's what I thought when I first read the WA but now I am having doubts.
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Old Aug 7th 2020, 10:47 am
  #22  
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Default Re: Residency rights can be lost!

Like I say this is the information my ex claimed was the case as we wanted our child to return to UK for a year to get UK school qualifications. The worry was that I would lose my residency rights and need to reapply. However she spoke to someone who told her that you could br absent for 2 years and you would retain your rights. Of course this was pro-Brexit but I dont think that will have changed other than it is now 5 years. Anyway hopefully nodunroamin will give us the link they used.
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