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Recent property hunt on CDS?

Recent property hunt on CDS?

Old May 29th 2012, 7:22 pm
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Default Recent property hunt on CDS?

Hi,
I have just returned from the CDS (fuengirola area) on a Villa hunt, I thought I would share my findings with you.

I have viewed probably 40-50 houses, and I have found the following

1) People are in denial over the values of their property, although Fuengirola area has not dropped as bad as others.
2) there are many properties that need 100k spending on them and people still want top price.
3) A lot of the stuff I saw was awful, badly renovated, bad locations etc. ie there is a lot of dross out there.
4) If you go and hold out with 250k in Euros you will buy a lovely villa that was once 500k, and would be a house that would be in the "big villa" category.
5) some people are desperate to return and will take peanuts for their houses.
6) the expats are drawing out their cash from Spanish banks and tranferring to Gib.
7) most think I am mad even looking due to euro problems, Greece etc

I have placed several bids and one was accepted by an elderly brit, who when the property is researched turns out to have an illegal garage, pool ,and the size as stated on the escritura is wrong, total cost to sort out 3 to 4k and the brit wants me to pay!! Are they real!!

Anyone finding the same?

regards
Al

Last edited by Lospacoshombre; May 29th 2012 at 8:58 pm.
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Old May 30th 2012, 7:46 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

I think you could repeat that process anywhere along the 'expat' coast and get the same result, and your point (7) appears appropriate.

And any house in Spain built more than 15 years ago, or so, is highly likely to have extensions and other matters not shown on the escritura. That's the way it was all those years ago and everybody paid black money too, as was the practice for centuries.

It would have remained that way until extreme greed took over and things became ridiculous with illegal houses springing up like mushrooms, and all involved in the building and selling side becoming rich, especially crooked politicians, thousands of them.

The cleaning up process is nowhere near complete and the talk is of three million empty houses now; I watched such a news item on the Spanish news earlier this morning.

There's nothing gleeful or spiteful in my post, I've got one of those old houses along with a dodgy escritura. If it would only cost me 3 or 4k to put it right I would have done it years ago, unfortunately it can't even be done at all, and I've tried. You can't get retrospective planning permission for alterations carried out 35 years ago.

I could still sell my place easily, at a sensible price, to a Spaniard used to the old ways, but not the brits now pointlessly searching for totally legal properties that don't exist, anywhere. You say you've looked at 40 or 50, it wouldn't have made any difference if you'd looked at a thousand.
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Old May 30th 2012, 8:54 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

HBG, are you really saying that there are no fully legal properties in Spain?
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Old May 30th 2012, 10:06 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by stuboy
HBG, are you really saying that there are no fully legal properties in Spain?
I can only say that i don't know of any, over 15 years old, in the expat areas. And if paying black money is illegal, I don't know of any anywhere.

But i only have limited knowledge of these matters, every house in my street is 'illegal' in the sense that they've all been extended in some way over the past 35 years, and escrituras were never amended in those days.

I said on another thread that there's racism and racism, and got into trouble; I suppose I'll get into trouble on this one saying there's legal and legal.
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Old May 30th 2012, 10:26 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by HBG
I can only say that i don't know of any, over 15 years old, in the expat areas. And if paying black money is illegal, I don't know of any anywhere.

But i only have limited knowledge of these matters, every house in my street is 'illegal' in the sense that they've all been extended in some way over the past 35 years, and escrituras were never amended in those days.

I said on another thread that there's racism and racism, and got into trouble; I suppose I'll get into trouble on this one saying there's legal and legal.
Absolutely agree. We were once told by a Spanish surveyor that 90-95% of all properties in the Valencian campo were illegal (to some degree).

Most of our friends have either added a pool, built a garage or, in some cases, added another house to their land. All without getting licences, paying the taxes or updating the escrituras.

No wonder our IBI bill is now 1100 euros whilst some of our neighbours (quite some distance away though), only pay 300 euros!
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Old May 30th 2012, 10:42 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by HBG
I can only say that i don't know of any, over 15 years old, in the expat areas. And if paying black money is illegal, I don't know of any anywhere.

But i only have limited knowledge of these matters, every house in my street is 'illegal' in the sense that they've all been extended in some way over the past 35 years, and escrituras were never amended in those days.

I said on another thread that there's racism and racism, and got into trouble; I suppose I'll get into trouble on this one saying there's legal and legal.
It wouldn't surprise me. The problem is a bit less ubiquitous with village houses as there isn't the space to build pools, garages or big extensions, but still many have had, say, another floor added or a room built on a roof terrance without any licence or amendment to the escritura.

And when we bought (9 years ago) it seemed pretty much impossible to buy from a Spaniard WITHOUT paying black money, they would simply refuse to sell if you tried to insist. The best we could do was to negotiate them down to no more than 20% of the purchase price from the 50% they wanted initially!
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Old May 30th 2012, 3:17 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by Lynn R
It wouldn't surprise me. The problem is a bit less ubiquitous with village houses as there isn't the space to build pools, garages or big extensions, but still many have had, say, another floor added or a room built on a roof terrance without any licence or amendment to the escritura.

And when we bought (9 years ago) it seemed pretty much impossible to buy from a Spaniard WITHOUT paying black money, they would simply refuse to sell if you tried to insist. The best we could do was to negotiate them down to no more than 20% of the purchase price from the 50% they wanted initially!
The whole planning thing's a mess, in my humble opinion. Round here there are probably hundreds of houses on 'protected land'. Now yes some of them will be 'totally' illegal, whether extended or not. But some (ourselves included) are old houses - way preceding the decree of suelo protegido in 1975 or whenever. Ours is conservatively 150 years old. Some numpty then decrees the land protected without making provision for existing properties so we still have to get some kind of regularisation. And what happens about the part of the house extended (legally as far as we know - certainly on the escritura) by our predecessor? I know that with justification people are criticised for seeing the UK as perfect and Spain as not, but when it comes to planning the UK system seems infinitely preferable and in most instances, better suited to safeguard the countryside, too!
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Old May 30th 2012, 3:33 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by Lynn R
It wouldn't surprise me. The problem is a bit less ubiquitous with village houses as there isn't the space to build pools, garages or big extensions, but still many have had, say, another floor added or a room built on a roof terrance without any licence or amendment to the escritura.

And when we bought (9 years ago) it seemed pretty much impossible to buy from a Spaniard WITHOUT paying black money, they would simply refuse to sell if you tried to insist. The best we could do was to negotiate them down to no more than 20% of the purchase price from the 50% they wanted initially!
We paid 40% in cash, millions of Pesetas as it was at the time, advised by highly respected lawyers, bank managers and everyone else.

About the legal and legal, when we were out driving yesterday we approached a Guardia Civil road block, they seem to be everywhere these days. My wife must have noticed that I was getting nervous and she chided me, saying that we (and the car) were all legal.

As usual, the trafico didn't want to see any other documents when he saw my Spanish driving licence. When we stopped for coffee I tried to explain to her (and myself).

We were both widowed and remarried, in the US. We tried to regularise our position in Spain, but it was impossible to do it all, eg the car is in her previous name because she had her NIE number with her when we bought it. One of the things we couldn't change names on, was the car log book.

Had the Guardia delved deeper, he would have found that my wife hadn't changed her name on the log book after getting married, and that name was nothing like the name on my driving licence and we're married.

I could never have explained that and all the other things and that's what made me nervous.

As I said, there's legal and legal.
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Old May 30th 2012, 9:08 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

DEAR HBG,
Thank you for your replies to my question, I am looking to buy a bargain property on the CDS. I thought I had one in the form of a villa, cash purchase, 3 bed, pool, 2 car garage, etc. for 210K.

The seller is an old brit lady.

The house is about 35 years old, and the pool and garage are not on the escritura and the square meterage is incorrect.

apparently it will cost 4k to legitimise the property. The seller who in my opinion is responsible for this says you buy it as it is, warts and all.

I am saying knock 4k off the price and we may move forward.

You are obviously experienced in this sort of thing, what is your advice?

Regards
Al
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Old May 30th 2012, 9:23 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

I was just reading in Spanish property forum of a villa in Coín up for sale end of March for €1.8 million, it's now priced for quick sale at €985,000! That's some drop, even allowing for some overpricing at the beginning. I think I would be hanging onto my dosh for a while, I suspect there are more price drops in the pipeline. It's not as if there is a shortage of properties.
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Old May 30th 2012, 9:38 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by Lospacoshombre
DEAR HBG,
Thank you for your replies to my question, I am looking to buy a bargain property on the CDS. I thought I had one in the form of a villa, cash purchase, 3 bed, pool, 2 car garage, etc. for 210K.

The seller is an old brit lady.

The house is about 35 years old, and the pool and garage are not on the escritura and the square meterage is incorrect.

apparently it will cost 4k to legitimise the property. The seller who in my opinion is responsible for this says you buy it as it is, warts and all.

I am saying knock 4k off the price and we may move forward.

You are obviously experienced in this sort of thing, what is your advice?

Regards
Al
Await HBG's response; but mine would be 4k? To sort their problems? Who are they kidding......
This is a buyer's market and don't let them forget it. Walk, and find another property. If they want you they'll find you.
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Old May 30th 2012, 9:57 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by fionamw
I know that with justification people are criticised for seeing the UK as perfect and Spain as not, but when it comes to planning the UK system seems infinitely preferable and in most instances, better suited to safeguard the countryside, too!
We have stayed around Costa de la Luz many times, and like the unspoilt nature of "some" of the beaches, including Valdevaqueros. Just reading now they are granting planning permission for a hotel and 300 houses there. Haven't they ruined enough "superficie paradisíaca" already? Hotels along that coastline have been closed completely, some just through the winter, due to lack of punters, do they really need to cover even more areas with concrete? The number of unsold properties are numbered in millions, do we need another 300?http://www.diariosur.es/20120530/loc...205301237.html
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Old May 30th 2012, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

If the changes were done some 35 years ago then the extension is prescrito and can be added to the deeds to make it legal. (anything over four years can be done so as long as fines are paid and an architect states that it complies with building regs) only property on protected land never becomes prescrito (national parks etc)
Adding it to the deeds costs around 1000 euros for a usual extension as the declared value is likely to be around 20000 euros. This can be done on the day of the sale and on continuation the notary signs the sale off with the whole house declared on the new deeds.
It is common practice in most of Spain but as stated above is especially common in the campo (and here in Valencia) because ere were very few planning laws in the past and everyone added a pool/extension/terrace an then paid the fine.
Not saying it is right, just saying that is how it works.
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Old May 31st 2012, 4:11 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by Lospacoshombre
DEAR HBG,
Thank you for your replies to my question, I am looking to buy a bargain property on the CDS. I thought I had one in the form of a villa, cash purchase, 3 bed, pool, 2 car garage, etc. for 210K.

The seller is an old brit lady.

The house is about 35 years old, and the pool and garage are not on the escritura and the square meterage is incorrect.

apparently it will cost 4k to legitimise the property. The seller who in my opinion is responsible for this says you buy it as it is, warts and all.

I am saying knock 4k off the price and we may move forward.

You are obviously experienced in this sort of thing, what is your advice?

Regards
Al
I'm only experienced in this sort of thing because of the house I'm writing this in. And it's situated in a different autonomous region (Valencia). However, I hope this helps.

I bought the house 13 years ago, a detached villa on a 1,000 metre plot. The price was normal and I employed a well-known Spanish solicitor to guide me, along with my trustworthy bank manager - having previously bought and sold other properties, including a couple on the CDS (only for my own use).

Everything was done legally and as was customary at that time, and I've had no problems since buying the house.

Three years ago I considered selling to move to another area, two miles away, although I also considered returning to Andalucia. At that time the various problems concerning Spanish properties were all over the news and I wanted to make sure that everything was legal.

I had already spoken to neighbours who had similar houses to mine and I knew that they were built 35 years ago and had all been massively extended over the years. Mine had a swimming pool, garage and a separate apartment added, prior to me buying it.

Just to check things out, I went back to my previous solicitor's office, but dealt with one of the younger partners, the original one having retired. I presented all of my documents and asked him to verify that everything was in order.

He had a brief glance at some of the papers and told me that of course everything was in order, and what did I want him to do for me.

To cut an already long story short, the extensions added since the house was built were all technically illegal and couldn't be rectified retrospectively, not with fines or anything else, and only demolition would make the house totally legal by restoring it to its original state, if I persisted with my foolishness.

By this time, my well-connected solicitor had introduced me to various town hall departments who all assured me that despite the daft escritura, everything was in order and I could happily sell the house.

For other reasons, I'm still in it, and happy, though I sometimes panic when I hear a bulldozer rumbling down the street.
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Old May 31st 2012, 4:55 am
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Default Re: Recent property hunt on CDS?

Originally Posted by grahunt
If the changes were done some 35 years ago then the extension is prescrito and can be added to the deeds to make it legal. (anything over four years can be done so as long as fines are paid and an architect states that it complies with building regs) only property on protected land never becomes prescrito (national parks etc)
Adding it to the deeds costs around 1000 euros for a usual extension as the declared value is likely to be around 20000 euros. This can be done on the day of the sale and on continuation the notary signs the sale off with the whole house declared on the new deeds.
It is common practice in most of Spain but as stated above is especially common in the campo (and here in Valencia) because ere were very few planning laws in the past and everyone added a pool/extension/terrace an then paid the fine.
Not saying it is right, just saying that is how it works.
That is totally the opposite of what our ayuntamiento has told me (and others). Our house was in place BEFORE they put suelo protegido status on the land - predating it by some 125 years or so. The ayuntamiento says I need to get a certification of first habitation to regularise the discrepancy (of some bureaucrat's making). The extension done by our predecessor? Well thankfully that's some 8-10 years ago and I believe done legally so we'll see! Ditto pool - also on escritura, also seen when they did an IBI revision locally with a Diputacion chap visiting properties physically, with camera etc., a couple of yers back. Again, we'll see. We're told the ayuntamiento is keen to retain people living in the existing houses, or they'll lose out on impuestos etc so they're 'on our side'. We'll see.
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