amideislas

I see... so there's a certain "range" of what certain "classes" of individual can possess, as defined by some bureaucrat?

Maybe that would be "fairer", but I have no doubt bureaucrats would be at the top of that list.

Again, what kind of bureaucrat should I aspire to become?

billgates

We don't have capitalism. If we had capitalism then we wouldn't have had billions in bailouts to private enterprises, also known as banks. Who has to pay that back?

To say that the wealthy pay most of the bills is just misleading.
The wealthy find every tax haven available and do their utmost to pay as little tax as they can legally (and illegally) get away with.
The overall total amount that the wealthy pay may be more than the majority of poorer people pay, but when the richest 1% own almost half the worlds wealth then it's hardly surprising.

But what percentage of their wealth do the wealthy actually pay in taxes?

When you take into account income tax, social security tax, IVA tax, fuel tax, car tax, alcohol tax, and any other taxes I can't think of right now, I must be paying nearly 70% of everything I earn in tax.

amideislas

It's pretty hard to get away with tax evasion nowadays. They've pretty much bottled up most illegal means of doing so.

EDIT: For the record, I too question whether the banks should have been bailed out. That isn't proper capitalism, and frankly I can only finger our increasingly socialist mindset for messing with mother nature in that way...

Anyway...

Yes, there are many perfectly legal means of avoiding tax, and yes, these apply largely to those who have wealth, and already pay quite a bit more than most, so yes, you can argue that the "wealthy" get all the breaks, but they still pay orders of magnitude more than most people.

In fact, the very reason reason that there are so many legal tax breaks for the wealthy, really, to give them every incentive to stick around. Almost every trading block supports their own "tax havens". This isn't an oversight. They have a clear purpose, and an important one...

After all, governments just love to spend.. but there just isn't enough tax revenue from the average taxpayer to make ends meet, not to mention there are much "friendlier" places to be wealthy (thank god, or else we'd all be paying something like 40% VAT and 80% income tax, simply because they could.. and they'd spend every penny of it on whatever they saw fit).

But really, it's all perception. Especially in the UK/Europe, if you have any wealth, they'll get a very big chunk of it, even with all the legal tax breaks.

Time for this again:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this…

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing
The fifth would pay £1
The sixth would pay £3
The seventh would pay £7
The eighth would pay £12
The ninth would pay £18
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59

So, that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.

“Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20″. Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

The bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

“I only got a dollar out of the £20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,”but he got £10!”

“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

cricketman

No it will not be determined by a bureaucrat

It will be determined by the general public via a democratic process. Everything Podemos have put in their manifesto has been suggested by the general public and voted for by the general public

And yes I agree billgates, that is exactly what Podemos are saying

For example, Apple have never paid a Euro in tax in Spain. Podemos say that Apple must pay an appropriate amount of tax on their Spanish earnings or they will not be allowed to operate in Spain. That sounds fair enough to me

scrubbedexpat095

LOL I can just see the scenario now Apple pull out of Spain completely and people stop buying Ipads and Iphones

I must say I do agree companies should pay taxes where they operate but I'm pretty sure if it comes to confrontation Apple won't cave in as it would have a dramatic effect on everywhere else they operate.

Earlier on you mentioned how important it was for the Royal Family to support Podemos, given that two members of said family are facing corruption accusations I think your optimistic POV that the Queen supports them is a load of waffle.

Do you have any link about the Queen supporting them or is it just LW gossip

cricketman

It was mentioned on Salvados last week

The new King and Queen have very high approval ratings in Spain, more so than any politician

It wouldn't be difficult to ban Apple products you know. People who really wanted them could get them from abroad but the effect of their sales in Spain would be tremendous.

amideislas

Again, following a perception rather than a reality.

Sorry, but Apple most certainly have paid taxes in Spain. Certainly less than if Apple were a Spanish-based company, but they do indeed pay taxes, along with their employees' taxes, not to mention import duty and IVA revenues.... They have done nothing illegal or immoral - that's simply your perception, not reality. But it makes for a good headline.

Granted, the majority of their European business is conducted from Ireland, but that's simply because Ireland offers a more attractive tax environment. Spain might benefit from that little tidbit.

It's called "competition" (may be new to you, or considered a dirty word, but it is an extremely important metric in all trade anywhere).

And believe it or not, competition is good for governments, too. Especially when it comes to taxation. It helps moderate their taxation and keep it from getting out of control, because those subject to it always have the opportunity to go elsewhere.

Again, thank god corporations like Apple have that option, otherwise, there would be no competition for Apple's tax revenues - they'd likely be forced to pay so much tax in Europe, that it would cause them to forget the European market altogether, or price their goods completely out of reach of consumers.

Anyway, back to the point - it's not possible to have a Spanish SL and employ people without paying taxes, unless of course you simply refuse, and then you'd be forced out of business anyway.

So Podemos want to change the system from "taxing business conducted in Spain", to "taxing business conducted in Spain". Brilliant spin. And so easy to comprehend, too. I reckon they may win after all.

Anyway, Apple have plenty of stores in Spain:
https://www.apple.com/es/retail/storelist/

So, certainly they've paid far more than €1 in tax, and therefore your perception is patently false.

Not to mention the people they employ... Who, unlike say, the US, are the primary source of tax revenues in European member states, not businesses.

We primarily tax individuals for our revenues - that's where the money is - YOU and ME. We have comparatively low corporate taxes (and the big players based in-country likely pay little, if any, just to keep them here - employing real taxpayers like YOU and ME).

And that explains why WE pay such obsessive taxes, naturally, perceiving that corporations get away with paying nothing. It's a typical socialist tax system, not evil corporations illegally evading taxes, but it's damned convenient to blame them. That's also a typical socialist mentality.

la mancha

You and your fellow brothers’ naivety is schoolboy-thinking communism at its best. If it all goes wrong, it will take a lifetime to put right. Do you honestly think that by voting in another party after the damage has been done everything will revert to what you all want it to overnight?

When looking at the Podemos manifesto I, too, could see the attraction. But then you look at things like where is the money going to come from. And I have neither seen nor heard anything about job creation.

Personally, I wish the Spanish all the luck, not only in the world but in the universe and beyond, because they will need it. My only reason for getting involved in this discussion is that I lived in Spain for 17 years before returning to the UK a few years ago. I am now working on an internet business and planned to return to Spain in the near future because I like the place and the people I know in Castilla-La Mancha. However, this has really made me think about it. Why should I come to a communist country with a ready-made business when I have the rest of Europe as a choice? And that is the point. Why would anyone want to open a business, buy a property, or even move to and rent a property in Spain when Podemos has already stated they will tax foreigners at a silly rate?

Do you or any of your fellow Podemos supporters know where the money and the jobs will come from? I'm interested to know this.

As for the ‘Salvados’ statement, I wouldn’t read too much into that. Here is a reference from Wikipedia on Salvados.

‘The channel then presented the program as "a mixture of daring and ironic reports, which takes reality humorously, with the target of entertaining."[2] Évole stated in an interview that "the new Salvados will issue different challenges to paint images of different realities with an ironic view, asking the questions nobody asks, with the secret collaboration of anonymous infiltrators, strange situations and near-impossible interviews.’

cricketman

La declaración de impuestos le sale a Apple a devolver en España | Economía | EL PAÍS

They haven't paid a euro in income taxes in Spain because they declare all their profits in Ireland

Not illegal of course, but immoral. Podemos say they will change the law to make it illegal and quite rightly too

amideislas

Erm, they manufacture and sell gadgets. They have a price. When sold in Spain, import and IVA are paid on them. Their headquarters are in California. They pay US taxes on that income. Their European headquarters are in Ireland, they pay taxes on their EU revenues in Ireland (much of which goes to the EU, by the way).

So, despite not being headquartered in Spain, yet operating various Apple Store SLs in Spain and most definitely paying tax on them - and employing probably a few hundred Spanish taxpayers... Actually, all that's asked of them...

...because it sold some stuff in Spain and despite all import, IVA and other taxes duly paid on it, Apple should declare it's European or worldwide income in Spain and pay it to Spain? And what is the benefit to Apple to agree to such arrogance and idiocy?

But OK, certainly a policy like that would prevent anything but Spanish-made products to be sold in Spain. That would make things a lot better.

Yeah, good plan.

Oh, by the way, I see that you have manufactured some rhetoric, and it has been delivered to my desktop. Therefore, I demand that you provide me with a complete financial statement so that I can tax you appropriately, so that I will not consider you to be "immorally" evading paying me what I've decided to be rightfully mine.

I expect your declaration this afternoon, please. I impose a 50% penalty for late disclosure.

cricketman

[QUOTE=la mancha;11462104]. Why would anyone want to open a business, buy a property, or even move to and rent a property in Spain when Podemos has already stated they will tax foreigners at a silly rate?
[/QUOTE

Podemos havent said they will "tax foreigners at a silly rate". It is a danger, but they havent said it

Referring to Salvados, again, just like amideislas you are commenting on things you know very little about. Salvados started off as a humorous political programme but after 15-M it went straight and tried to explain to the general public just what the hell is going on in Spain

Sometimes I wonder why I bother on this board. It's a bit like trying to explain quantum physics to 3 year olds - or to explain to a Chinaman who Jeremy Paxman is

Porth

[QUOTE=cricketman;11462142] Your last paragraph is enlightening for we all groan when we seen your name flashing up. Indeed I posted this morning about alleged corruption with the Royal Family and you have by-passed that question? Then yesterday I mentioned Real Madrid and Barcelona you have today placed a question on that subject with making reference that it had been raised before?

Then you are almost silent on the source of your comment that the Spanish Queen is what is the phrase you used? If you reference something then you must give the source.

Now a question Cricketman what please is a Chinaman and please do not google it. I hope we can trust you on that point?

la mancha

[QUOTE=cricketman;11462142] So it is a danger then? Good enough for me.

You say Salvados went straight after 15M? Doesn’t look like it from what I see of them. I am not in any way speaking about the Spanish Royal Family, but since the subject of Salvados came up, is this a Salvados comment or did the new King and Queen actually say on TV they support a political party that could 'leave the EU, renege on debt, exit from Nato, nationalise the banks' etc.etc.?

And don’t praise yourself. After all, it is you who is voting for a party that has not said how it will pay for its policies or how jobs will be created. Still waiting on that one.

So you think I am a three year-old. Okay, let’s talk adult politics. When you say ‘Personally I want to see what happens. If it is a disaster then the public can vote someone else in 4 years later. No hard feelings’, do you really believe that by waving a magic wand the bad can disappear overnight? Anyway, as you said, if the party you or your family vote for taxes you too much you will think of leaving Spain. I like adult politics.

Never mind; it isn’t me who will suffer if it all goes wrong, is it.

amideislas

[QUOTE=cricketman;11462142] One thing I do know - a mix of idealism, arrogance and dogmatism do not constitute rational ideology.

Under the right conditions, you can get people to completely dismiss obvious failings in favour of simply wanting to believe it.

Movie directors and advertising producers know this technique well. It's known as "suspension of disbelief". You cleverly associate an obvious falsehood to something you know the target WANTS to believe. It doesn't last forever though. People eventually wake up. Politicians have learned a lot about it too. Just the right application just before the polls open often does the trick.

Perhaps that explains a little about why we often seem to enthusiastically fix stuff that isn't really broken, whilst ignoring stuff that's crumbling at the foundation, and then complain about it later (well, at least blame someone else for it)...

Lenox

If corruption in Spain wasn't endemic, there wouldn't be a call, a democratic call, from the population for a group like Podemos.
Get rid of the corruption, the nepotism, the commissions, the pringaos, the cables, the dodgy judges and dishonest bankers - pretty damn quickly too - or accept that the pueblo will do it anyway.
Soon!
Then later, much later, we may have to worry about what Podemos will have brought us instead.