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The Real News is Disturbing

The Real News is Disturbing

Old Nov 4th 2014, 5:04 am
  #76  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

I'm all for innovation, but we're already far above our quota of radicals in this world.

For me, the worrying thing is that so many people blindly buy into this stuff, simply as a reaction to whatever they may disapprove of this morning (e.g., whatever happens to be on the news), patently forgetting all the things they'd really disapprove of if unfortunate enough to get their wish, as if the historically proven undesirable after-effects could never happen to them.

Fortunately, we aren't subjected to (most of) those things ...yet... But I worry sometimes.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 7:17 am
  #77  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

I think this topic has turned very personal. It is not about one man or his own politics, it is about a political party (Podemos) discourse on their manifesto whether good or bad is fine, but to turn it on its head to make statements about one person and his own preferred politics should be left out of it.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 7:34 am
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

That one is just a source of entertainment. It's all the other lemmings I worry about.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:01 pm
  #79  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Bri and Katee
I think this topic has turned very personal. It is not about one man or his own politics, it is about a political party (Podemos) discourse on their manifesto whether good or bad is fine, but to turn it on its head to make statements about one person and his own preferred politics should be left out of it.
It feels a bit like shooting the messenger to me

Podemos are leading the polls. There is probably a 50% likelihood of them winning the election next year so British expats need to get clued up about what might happen, this is a completely revolutionary event

I am excited about Podemos because this is democracy at its finest. The movement came out of the 15-M protests and has been put together by ordinary people democratically in neighbourhood meetings

Podemos don't call themselves communists, but their basis is essentially communist, a little like Jesus was essentially a communist. They want to make sure that nobody suffers and nobody is trod upon, that people don't go hungry and that people have equal opportunities

Personally I want to see what happens. If it is a disaster then the public can vote someone else in 4 years later. No hard feelings
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
etc.etc.
Personally I want to see what happens. If it is a disaster then the public can vote someone else in 4 years later. No hard feelings
The only problem with that POV is that in 4 years they could really destroy Spain.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:05 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by la mancha

From the Podemos manifesto.
Yep that's right, it is very revolutionary

Although Pablo Iglesias said in the interview with Jordi Evole that private bodies would only be nationalised if they failed to ensure that the poorest in society get access to their services, so e.g. if they cut off the water of a destitute person, or if the banks continue to throw families onto the streets

Pablo Iglesias and Jordi Evole are the two young 30 somethings who have done more for democracy in Spain than anyone since King Juan Carlos all those years ago who was also a 30 something when he came to the throne. Out with the old, in with the new

By the way, the Queen Leticia is rumoured to be a big Pablo Iglesias fan. It looks like the Royal Family will be getting behind Podemos which is also a very important development

Last edited by cricketman; Nov 4th 2014 at 8:07 pm.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:08 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by mfh
The only problem with that POV is that in 4 years they could really destroy Spain.
And it hasn't been destroyed over the past 6 years?
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:15 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
Yep that's right, it is very revolutionary

Although Pablo Iglesias said in the interview with Jordi Evole that private bodies would only be nationalised if they failed to ensure that the poorest in society get access to their services, so e.g. if they cut off the water of a destitute person, or if the banks continue to throw families onto the streets

Pablo Iglesias and Jordi Evole are the two young 30 somethings who have done more for democracy in Spain than anyone since King Juan Carlos all those years ago who was also a 30 something when he came to the throne. Out with the old, in with the new

By the way, the Queen Leticia is rumoured to be a big Pablo Iglesias fan. It looks like the Royal Family will be getting behind Podemos which is also a very important development
What you assert you must prove ' By the way the Queen Leticia is rumoured to be........' Again please is this the same Royal Family or at least someone allegedly connected with it who it was alleged had some issues with corruption.

I am now awaiting your response which must have some issues with our Royal Family. Least you think differently I believe that the old guard Royal Family wise be in Spain or UK behave and behaved differently to the modern day generation. Style do you know!
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:26 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Porth
What you assert you must prove ' By the way the Queen Leticia is rumoured to be........' Again please is this the same Royal Family or at least someone allegedly connected with it who it was alleged had some issues with corruption.

I am now awaiting your response which must have some issues with our Royal Family. Least you think differently I believe that the old guard Royal Family wise be in Spain or UK behave and behaved differently to the modern day generation. Style do you know!
I have issue with all Royal Families. It is a ridiculous concept that someone has a birth right to rule over somebody else

But it is important for Spanish democracy that the Royal Family support Podemos, otherwise we could be heading into serious conflict like Spain saw in the 1930s
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:50 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
It feels a bit like shooting the messenger to me

Podemos are leading the polls. There is probably a 50% likelihood of them winning the election next year so British expats need to get clued up about what might happen, this is a completely revolutionary event

I am excited about Podemos because this is democracy at its finest. The movement came out of the 15-M protests and has been put together by ordinary people democratically in neighbourhood meetings

Podemos don't call themselves communists, but their basis is essentially communist, a little like Jesus was essentially a communist. They want to make sure that nobody suffers and nobody is trod upon, that people don't go hungry and that people have equal opportunities

Personally I want to see what happens. If it is a disaster then the public can vote someone else in 4 years later. No hard feelings
First, communism isn't democratic. It just isn't. I sense you don't know the meaning of the word.

As even you so often point out, the widespread perception is that we're all impoverished and all things are greed-motivated (despite evidence to the contrary). That's one way to spin it, but in reality, people just want to prosper, just as they always have, and always will.

Communism's primary flaw is that it effectively prohibits that which humans instinctively aspire to, in favour of the "common good".

Particularly for those who are dissatisfied with what they perceive they don't have, communism looks "fairer" at first, but in reality, humans can only tolerate it until they discover that under that system, "opportunity" is inevitably reserved for the "ruling class", resulting in another revolution to make things "fairer" and provide more "opportunity" - it's all perception, innit?

Communism transfers responsibility and decisions for virtually everything in life to faceless government bureaucrats, who, as humans, naturally end up capitalising on their power to determine the fate of those they govern, ultimately resulting in a much broader gap between rich and poor - precisely what communism is intended to prevent. But that's all academic.

You can argue that in our current system, the gap between rich and poor is growing, but that's strictly relative to the massive middle class that was created in the in our post-war industrial revolution, created entirely through capitalism. Free market societies still claim the greatest prosperity, opportunity, AND the largest middle class - especially when compared to the alternatives.

Capitalism works far more effectively than communism simply because the opportunity to prosper is precisely what motivates humans to learn, innovate, grow, and contribute to society.

By comparison, communism's record is a pretty sorry statistic. Even China has discovered the wisdom of capitalism, which has already transformed its population, and will eventually lead it to become the most prosperous nation on earth - for the vast majority of it's population, just as it did for us and every nation who has adopted it.

In the end, I simply cannot grasp how penalising and prohibiting prosperity will make anyone more prosperous or create more "opportunity" for anyone.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 8:58 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
First, communism isn't democratic. It just isn't. I sense you don't know the meaning of the word.

As even you so often point out, the widespread perception is that we're all impoverished and all things are greed-motivated (despite evidence to the contrary). That's one way to spin it, but in reality, people just want to prosper, just as they always have, and always will.

Communism's primary flaw is that it effectively prohibits that which humans instinctively aspire to, in favour of the "common good".

Particularly for those who are dissatisfied with what they perceive they don't have, communism looks "fairer" at first, but in reality, humans can only tolerate it until they discover that under that system, "opportunity" is inevitably reserved for the "ruling class", resulting in another revolution to make things "fairer" and provide more "opportunity" - it's all perception, innit?

Communism transfers responsibility and decisions for virtually everything in life to faceless government bureaucrats, who, as humans, naturally end up capitalising on their power to determine the fate of those they govern, ultimately resulting in a much broader gap between rich and poor - precisely what communism is intended to prevent. But that's all academic.

You can argue that in our current system, the gap between rich and poor is growing, but that's strictly relative to the massive middle class that was created in the in our post-war industrial revolution, created entirely through capitalism. Free market societies still claim the greatest prosperity, opportunity, AND the largest middle class - especially when compared to the alternatives.

Capitalism works far more effectively than communism simply because the opportunity to prosper is precisely what motivates humans to learn, innovate, grow, and contribute to society.

By comparison, communism's record is a pretty sorry statistic. Even China has discovered the wisdom of capitalism, which has already transformed its population, and will eventually lead it to become the most prosperous nation on earth - for the vast majority of it's population, just as it did for us and every nation who has adopted it.

In the end, I simply cannot grasp how penalising and prohibiting prosperity will make anyone more prosperous or create more "opportunity" for anyone.
Communism isn't democratic? You haven't heard of one man one vote one time?
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 9:30 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
First, communism isn't democratic. It just isn't. I sense you don't know the meaning of the word.
Then by your definition Podemos isn't communism, so you have nothing to worry about

I repeat, it is I who has defined Podemos as communist on this thread. They don't call themselves communist. A lot of the policies are very strongly socialist, but they are also incredibly democratic, so maybe you can call them something else if you like. It doesnt really matter as words are just pidgeon holes. Personally I would say that Podemos are a participative democratic anarcho-communist association. They arent even a political party in the true sense of the word, but a rather loosly based association of neighbours

Most the people on this thread are getting their knickers in a twist about Soviet style communism. That is completely irrelevant to what Podemos are proposinng. This is something new - and it could define an era

Last edited by cricketman; Nov 4th 2014 at 9:36 pm.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 10:11 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

But this ISN'T anything new it's just Venezuelan politics brought to Spain and look at the era that defined!

Originally Posted by cricketman
Then by your definition Podemos isn't communism, so you have nothing to worry about

I repeat, it is I who has defined Podemos as communist on this thread. They don't call themselves communist. A lot of the policies are very strongly socialist, but they are also incredibly democratic, so maybe you can call them something else if you like. It doesnt really matter as words are just pidgeon holes. Personally I would say that Podemos are a participative democratic anarcho-communist association. They arent even a political party in the true sense of the word, but a rather loosly based association of neighbours

Most the people on this thread are getting their knickers in a twist about Soviet style communism. That is completely irrelevant to what Podemos are proposinng. This is something new - and it could define an era
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 10:21 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
Then by your definition Podemos isn't communism, so you have nothing to worry about

I repeat, it is I who has defined Podemos as communist on this thread. They don't call themselves communist. A lot of the policies are very strongly socialist, but they are also incredibly democratic, so maybe you can call them something else if you like. It doesnt really matter as words are just pidgeon holes. Personally I would say that Podemos are a participative democratic anarcho-communist association. They arent even a political party in the true sense of the word, but a rather loosly based association of neighbours

Most the people on this thread are getting their knickers in a twist about Soviet style communism. That is completely irrelevant to what Podemos are proposinng. This is something new - and it could define an era
Surely, for any party harbouring a communist-inspired ideology, to refer to themselves as "communist" would be a bit suicidal, wouldn't it? Tell me, what does DPRK stand for? A democracy?

As a natural appeal to populist resentment of the "wealthy" (who ironically, pay most of the bills), Podemos aspires to prohibit or otherwise severely penalise wealth, and assume control of the very definition of "wealth", along with control over who can and cannot have it - a rather communist sentiment, not?

For me, that says it all.
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Old Nov 4th 2014, 10:32 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
As a natural appeal to populist resentment of the "wealthy" (who ironically, pay most of the bills), Podemos aspires to prohibit or otherwise severely penalise wealth, and assume control of the very definition of "wealth", along with control over who can and cannot have it - a rather communist sentiment, not?
When have they said that?

They are against wealth compiled from exploitation and corruption, but I have yet to read a statement saying that they are against all wealth

They would have a maximum salary of 20 times the minimum salary though, so I guess they are against excessive salaries. I wonder what that would mean for the Real Madrid and Barcelona football teams?!
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