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The Real News is Disturbing

The Real News is Disturbing

Old Nov 2nd 2014, 9:40 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

It seems from what you are saying cricketman that Podemos are offering a utopia if its attainable. I can go along with that, however without the EU they are sunk and to say if they don't get their own way they will leave is naive at best- just look how far its got Cameron in the UK. Now Merkel has got fed up of him throwing his teddy in the corner and says fine, if you want to leave then go, but the EU won't change it rules for anyone.

Just another big hole being dug for Spain by yet another political group.
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 9:51 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
You need to read their manifesto but I don't think it exists in English. They want to invest more in research and investment and create the companies from within Spain rather than with external investment, but let's see. If I had said 6 months ago that from the 15-M movement a democratic communist party would grow and be leading the polls in Spain, you would have called me deluded

Podemos are showing that anything is possible, they are giving people hope

I am sceptical too because they are challenging the liberal capitalist model and creating a new paradigm, but it was about time that it was challenged, it was a long time coming! So let's see what happens.

My bet is that the US will send someone to kill Pablo Iglesias before the end of the year
Well OK Cricketman, I'll be watching, but perhaps you should keep at least one bag packed.
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 9:58 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Beaverstate
Well OK Cricketman, I'll be watching, but perhaps you should keep at least one bag packed.
They will be exciting times for sure!
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:12 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Beaverstate
The first paragraph isn't free, it is paid for from the taxes of growing companies Spain will NEED.

Second paragraph' the business model of then vs the business model now is radically different.

Third paragraph, the Spanish people can be fed up with corporations and bankers all they want, but it will only be the NEW corporations that will provide them the jobs and wealth needed to fund paragraph one.

Paragraph four...You sir are deluding yourself, quite unlikely the world will be following Spains example.
Absolutely right.

Not only does this form of extreme distribution of wealth constitute an environment wholly undesirable for any business to operate in, but will also breed all kinds of corruption / nepotism / etc., as only a handful of very powerful individuals in every region will discretely hold the keys to virtually anyone's ability to prosper. And they will capitalise on that power, as all communist politicos inevitably do, simply because they can - and with full support of the system.

If this form of government is ever voted in, then I'm going to get into politics or law enforcement, because this will be the best chance of making any money (and keeping it).
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:16 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
If this form of government is ever voted in, then I'm going to get into politics or law enforcement, because this will be the best chance of making any money (and keeping it).
Then you had better start making plans because they are leading the polls!

Elections are next year!
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:32 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Bri and Katee
It seems from what you are saying cricketman that Podemos are offering a utopia if its attainable. I can go along with that, however without the EU they are sunk and to say if they don't get their own way they will leave is naive at best- just look how far its got Cameron in the UK. Now Merkel has got fed up of him throwing his teddy in the corner and says fine, if you want to leave then go, but the EU won't change it rules for anyone.

Just another big hole being dug for Spain by yet another political group.
Pure posturing. Same thing happened before the Scottish vote - the establishment (which included the EU in that case) adopted a blatant policy of scaremongering. Had YES won the vote, reality would have immediately kicked in the day after.
Merkel etc is doing exactly the same thing to Cameron. She wants to scare people so the Tories don't win the next election, hence no referendum. If the Tories win, Merkel etc will change their tune.
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:39 pm
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Change is always difficult for people. Spain has had comparable forms of government - ranging from totalitarian, heavily socialist, borderlining on communist, back in the good old days when "getting around the system" was an accepted way of life. Some of those old mentalities still exist to a certain extent.

But that's changing. Paternal, all-encompassing government and all its negative side effects are not nearly as tolerable for many, as evidenced by the massive arrests of politicians still living in a by-gone era.

On the other hand, today's risks of operating "the old way" are understandably not entirely tolerable for many - it's change... and that's not always an easy thing to accept, especially when it's the only way you've ever known.

So, I reckon the offer of returning to "a fairer system" by yielding all responsibility for your fate to government bureaucrats (along with the drawback of being entirely subservient to them) is attractive to many.

But they should be careful what they wish for... The penalties for non-conformance also apply to them (unless of course, they can find their way into the "ruling class", where they can do whatever they want with impunity).

Yes, nothing like the good 'ol days, eh?

Last edited by amideislas; Nov 2nd 2014 at 10:43 pm.
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:43 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
Change is always difficult for people. Spain has had comparable forms of government - ranging from totalitarian, heavily socialist, borderlining on communist, back in the good old days when "getting around the system" was an accepted way of life. Some of those old mentalities still exist to a certain extent.

But that's changing. Paternal, all-encompassing government and all its negative side effects are not nearly as tolerable for many, as evidenced by the massive arrests of politicians still living in a by-gone era.

On the other hand, today's risks of operating "the old way" are understandably not entirely tolerable for many - it's change... and that's not always an easy thing to accept, especially when it's the only way you've ever known.

So, I reckon the offer of returning to "a fairer system" by pushing all responsibility for your fate to government bureaucrats (and the drawbacks of being entirely subservient to them) is attractive to many.

But they should be careful what they wish for... The penalties for non-conformance also apply to them (unless of course, they can find their way into the "ruling class", where they can do whatever they want with impunity).

Yes, nothing like the good 'ol days, eh?
From your post I can tell that you have absolutely no idea what Podemos stand for. All the info is freely available on the internet, I suggest you do some reading
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Old Nov 2nd 2014, 10:59 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Oh, I really don't need to know all the details.

Socialism on steroids - or "virtual communism" - always begins with the promise of a "fairer" system... especially in times of a struggling economy, when everything tends to seem "unfair" to the population - inevitably makes a pretty attractive argument ...at first...

...until politicians discover that the system inherently provides them virtually unlimited power to do whatever they want - with impunity... ...just like it used to be in the "good 'ol days"...

EDIT: I probably need not point out the (initially, incredibly popular) idealistic socialist dreams of Mr. Hollande and company... and how that's going...

Last edited by amideislas; Nov 2nd 2014 at 11:47 pm.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 12:13 am
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Bri and Katee
It seems from what you are saying cricketman that Podemos are offering a utopia if its attainable. I can go along with that, however without the EU they are sunk and to say if they don't get their own way they will leave is naive at best- just look how far its got Cameron in the UK. Now Merkel has got fed up of him throwing his teddy in the corner and says fine, if you want to leave then go, but the EU won't change it rules for anyone.

Just another big hole being dug for Spain by yet another political group.
I happen to think Cameron's arguments are quite well-founded. And frankly, I also believe the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, so Cameron will likely get most of the concessions he's seeking, regardless of what the Eurocrats say.

If not, well, Britain can survive just fine without the EU. Despite the doom-sayers prophecies, trade wouldn't change much, just a bit more paperwork. Unless of course, the EU would continue (or increase) its self-destructive protectionist policies - just to spite the UK - but even then, that would hurt the EU more than Britain.

In fact, I believe it's Merkel and other Eurocrats who are more-or-less living in a dream world. Yes, for struggling nations, EU membership can result in profoundly positive things (at the expense of more prosperous EU member states), for example, to struggling former Soviet states, EU membership can look pretty attractive.

But for any already-prosperous nation such as the UK, the benefits of EU membership aren't so astoundingly progressive that it's ridiculous to question it.

Having said that, I also believe the EU project is one worthy of a lot of respect. It was, after all, a virtually impossible task. But it's still a work in progress, and isn't yet worthy of such arrogance to presume anyone who questions it is somehow living in a dream world. Considering the state of things at the moment, quite the opposite, really.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 1:31 am
  #26  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
Oh, I really don't need to know all the details.

Socialism on steroids - or "virtual communism" - always begins with the promise of a "fairer" system... especially in times of a struggling economy, when everything tends to seem "unfair" to the population - inevitably makes a pretty attractive argument ...at first...

...until politicians discover that the system inherently provides them virtually unlimited power to do whatever they want - with impunity... ...just like it used to be in the "good 'ol days"...

EDIT: I probably need not point out the (initially, incredibly popular) idealistic socialist dreams of Mr. Hollande and company... and how that's going...
I live in France and have done so for so many years. It is dire and the problem is that Hollande has a few more years yet to enjoy himself in Versailles.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 2:04 am
  #27  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by Porth
I live in France and have done so for so many years. It is dire and the problem is that Hollande has a few more years yet to enjoy himself in Versailles.
There are really no similarities between Hollande and Podemos

Podemos are way more extreme, they propose changing everything, the very essence of our lives. They would effectively ban liberal capitalism within Spain

Projects, companies and individuals would be judged by how much good they bring to society, rather than how much % GDP they contribute. It is a paradigm shift like I said

It sounds impossible of course, but I'm game

If they get elected then that would be the second most important and influential event so far in the 21st century (after the 2008 crash) without a doubt. You cannot underestimate the importance of this. If Podemos succeed, or even if they don't, the consequencies are incredibly far reaching

Last edited by cricketman; Nov 3rd 2014 at 2:10 am.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 2:12 am
  #28  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
Well, most of the things are rumours at the moment, but we must be aware that Podemos are basically a communist party (I am not exagerrating). Their roots are in communism and their policies are a democratic form of communism

Nothing wrong with that, in fact I will vote for them when allowed as will my wife

Some of their manifesto pledges are introducing a universal income, increasing minimum wage to around 1,000 euros per month and introducing a maximum wage of 20 times the minimum wage. They will also only pay the national debt back which they deem to be "legal", will ban tax havens and private education and heath cover and re-introduce border controls.

They will also demand greater autonomy from Europe or say they will leave. They threaten to re-nationalise a lot of public services and industries unless they promise to deliver accessible services to the poorest in society

At the moment Podemos are leading the polls. If they get in I think it is no exageration to say that it will change the entire world

Their policies will be very expensive and when asked who will pay for it they say "the rich" which is rather naive, but basically they say the rich should either pay a lot more taxes or get lost because they don't want them in the country
Don`t know much about them. But I certainly like this.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 2:35 am
  #29  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by cricketman
There are really no similarities between Hollande and Podemos

Podemos are way more extreme, they propose changing everything, the very essence of our lives. They would effectively ban liberal capitalism within Spain

Projects, companies and individuals would be judged by how much good they bring to society, rather than how much % GDP they contribute. It is a paradigm shift like I said

It sounds impossible of course, but I'm game
Well that's ideal. Damn! why didn't anyone think of that?

But which bureaucrats do you "court" for favourable "judgements" in order to stay in business? (I want to know which bureaucrat I should apply to be: ka-ching!).

And what do the rest of the population live on? After all, the government, Telefonica, and Endesa can't employ everyone - except maybe if they pay the population a handful of peanuts for their max 30-hour work week of doing nothing, and give them all block housing of 2-room flats to live in - to ensure they are doing "good" for society and achieve "favourable" status with the omnipotent bureaucrats judging the show (of which I plan to be a member of).

On the upside, I reckon welfare would start to look a lot more attractive than it does now.
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Old Nov 3rd 2014, 3:04 am
  #30  
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Default Re: The Real News is Disturbing

Originally Posted by amideislas
Well that's ideal. Damn! why didn't anyone think of that?

But which bureaucrats do you "court" for favourable "judgements" in order to stay in business? (I want to know which bureaucrat I should apply to be: ka-ching!).
You can hardly accuse an association which is just 6 months old and have never had any power of being corrupt

Of course there are huge questions that need answering to help balance the books, but at the end of the day a well meaning ideal is better than one which deliberately impoverishes the poor to create a few billionnaires (liberal capitalism)

Podemos is basically a giant association of neighbours (as is my son's school by the way). If you are interested then get involved!

This is politics created by the people for the people
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