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Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Old May 10th 2019, 4:03 pm
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Default Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Hi,

I've been staying in Spain since early January and am considering staying past 183 days, when it comes up.
But I'm in two minds on actually registering as a tax resident.
-> I don't work in Spain, or own property here, or even rent long term.
-> The only income I currently receive is rental income from my property in UK.
-> I am registered as tax resident in UK, and pay all taxes due there.

I understand there is a taxation treaty between UK and Spain (though I haven't been able to find any details/numbers behind this), so it may be that I would not owe (additional) tax on the UK property anyway, making registering simply an exercise in experiencing painful bureaucracy.
At the same time, some sources suggest I would be taxed on worldwide assets, regardless of the taxation treaty, hence would owe (double) tax on the UK property.
I have not registered for NIE in Spain (as I don't intend to buy a property).
The only thing I've registered for is the health (SIP) card (and when I use it, the UK gets billed).

Apologies for the ramble, I guess my question is :
For someone in my spot, is it a reasonable option to simply stay under the radar, and if I do, how could the authorities possibly find me / fine me / lock me up / execute me?

Cheers.
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Old May 10th 2019, 4:10 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Personally I think it's an entirely unreasonable option.
You have chosen to live here, surely it's only reasonable for you to obey the law and pay your way. If you think this is unpalatable then perhaps you should rethink your place of residence.
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Old May 10th 2019, 4:26 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

To all intents and purposes you are proposing to be an illegal immigrant.

I am surprised that you have a SIP card if you have no NIE or residencia certificate because normally in order to gain a SIP you need to provide both to the social security office.

There used to be a great many people living under the radar but since the panic over Brexit the Spanish offices have been inundated with people signing on the foreigners register so that they no longer have the worry of being here illegally.

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Old May 10th 2019, 4:29 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

If you spend the requisite time in Spain you have no option as you become, de facto, tax resident.

That means you will pay tax in Spain on your worldwide income which clearly includes your UK rental income.

As that income arises in the UK it will also be taxed in the UK, but the tax treaty allows you to deduct any UK tax pain from any tax due in Spain on the same income.

You can read the tax treaty here

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-_in_force.pdf

Can you stay under the radar? Under the present rules, probably. After Brexit the whole system will change as you will probably not be allowed to spend more than 90 days in any 180 day period under the Schengen rules that apply to non EU foreigners. Keeping under the radar then could be more difficult.
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Old May 10th 2019, 8:59 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

What do we call people who come to the UK and live 'under the radar'? Oh yes, illegal immigrants.
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Old May 10th 2019, 10:07 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by bob_bob
What do we call people who come to the UK and live 'under the radar'? Oh yes, illegal immigrants.
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Old May 11th 2019, 7:32 am
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Agree with above comments. More here for the OP

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-i...#money-and-tax
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Old May 11th 2019, 8:50 am
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by bob_bob
What do we call people who come to the UK and live 'under the radar'? Oh yes, illegal immigrants.
Usually has the addition of boot them out!
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Old May 11th 2019, 10:57 am
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by Experimenter19
Hi,

I've been staying in Spain since early January and am considering staying past 183 days, when it comes up.
But I'm in two minds on actually registering as a tax resident.
-> I don't work in Spain, or own property here, or even rent long term.
-> The only income I currently receive is rental income from my property in UK.
-> I am registered as tax resident in UK, and pay all taxes due there.

I understand there is a taxation treaty between UK and Spain (though I haven't been able to find any details/numbers behind this), so it may be that I would not owe (additional) tax on the UK property anyway, making registering simply an exercise in experiencing painful bureaucracy.
At the same time, some sources suggest I would be taxed on worldwide assets, regardless of the taxation treaty, hence would owe (double) tax on the UK property.
I have not registered for NIE in Spain (as I don't intend to buy a property).
The only thing I've registered for is the health (SIP) card (and when I use it, the UK gets billed).

Apologies for the ramble, I guess my question is :
For someone in my spot, is it a reasonable option to simply stay under the radar, and if I do, how could the authorities possibly find me / fine me / lock me up / execute me?

Cheers.
I'm so glad that "experimenter 19" is happy that he is getting a pleasant lifestyle whilst he's here in Spain on the backs of other people that pay all their dues when required. Does he ever ask himself who pays for street cleaners, Police services, basura collection etc, etc.

I hope when any Brexit rules eventually come into force that these "immigrants" are found, fined and left out on a limb.

Steve
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Old May 11th 2019, 11:24 am
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

As the OP has not responded to any replies my guess is they posted the question aiming to get the response they have and have got some warped pleasure from this!
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Old May 11th 2019, 12:16 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by bobd22
As the OP has not responded to any replies my guess is they posted the question aiming to get the response they have and have got some warped pleasure from this!
Either that, or they've realised that there's no tolerance here for people who look for a free ride at the expense of others. I'm hoping it's the latter but hey, whatever floats their canoe
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Old May 11th 2019, 4:31 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

I can imagine he voted"leave" in the referendum because he was annoyed about all those illegal immigrants going to the UK for a free ride.
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Old May 11th 2019, 4:39 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by dougal03
I can imagine he voted"leave" in the referendum because he was annoyed about all those illegal immigrants going to the UK for a free ride.
Not every body who voted leave did so because of immigration!
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Old May 11th 2019, 4:44 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by snikpoh
Not every body who voted leave did so because of immigration!
That's very true But let's not start on the B word, the forum's overrun with bloody Brexit threads
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Old May 11th 2019, 7:52 pm
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Default Re: Question on 183 day rule / UK tax treaty

Originally Posted by snikpoh
Not every body who voted leave did so because of immigration!
True but as it wasn't a specific question on the ballot we will never know . From what I hear and read from people that did vote out for a large proportion immigration was an issue all be it confused often with immigration from elsewhere than the EU. At the end of the day it is down to any individual how they vote and for whatever reason, personal vote personal choice.
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