Problem registering old Spanish house
 

I am hoping to find some advice for a friend who hasn't got the internet. He owns an old Spanish cottage in Malaga province, bought years ago - in the days when all it took was a handshake and a simple typed document signed by vendor, buyer and witness (compra venta).

The cottage has never been added to the Spanish Land Registry, so about 18 months ago my friend approached a Gestoria to get it sorted out legally according to current laws. He realises he may be fined for not registering the cottage earlier.

This company has taken several thousand euros off him for unspecified "fees", and yesterday called him and the vendor into their office to sign the paperwork they have prepared.

This turns out to be a brand new sale document (dated yesterday). The sale price is pure fiction, and they'd even got the details of the house wrong (they've put the number of a neighbouring house).

My friend desperately needs some independent advice before he gets sucked into what looks like a very dodgy deal that is more likely to turn him into a fraudster than achieve the result he's looking for. He realises he may be fined for not registering the cottage earlier.

His inclination is to run a mile - but that won't get his house registered legally.. And there is the money he has paid to this company which he certainly can't afford to lose.

My friend has a little time before any confrontation because the "Gestor" has to change the details of the house on the documents.

Can any kind people here offer any help, please; has anyone been through this situation? Or recommend a lawyer in Malaga province who understands the procedure? All advice very gratefully received.

Thanks for reading.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

As Concierges for the Spanish section of BE we would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Cannot give advice or recommend a lawyer in the area but when you have a few more posts you will be able to use the PM facility and then we would advise you to send a PM to SueG who may be able to point you in the right direction or recommend a lawyer in that area.

Please let us know if you need any further help.

Rosemary and Graham

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

If I was your friend I would buy some time by saying I was ill or something that would mean he couldn't go to the office, and then get some sound advice, its sounds like he will be jumping out of the fireplace into the fire.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Thank you for your replies, Rosemary and Graham, and Adra.

I've been doing a bit of digging over the past couple of days. Apparently this Gestoria has arranged the registration of quite a few houses in my friend's village - although so far no-one has let me look at their documents so I don't know if they were all given brand new compra ventas.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

"Unspecified fess" gives me the heebie geebies.
Are there any deeds (escritura) to this property, do they have the original compra venta, have any major changes been made to the property?
Like all things Spanish it is impossible to say exactly what is relevant for one will apply to all.
If they have the original compra venta (which they should have) then surely this should not be a problem other than having to pay any possible fine.
I have not heard of retro perspective compra ventas and I'm not sure how they would work.
Sorry can't be more help.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

"in the days when all it took was a handshake and a simple typed document signed by vendor, buyer and witness (compra venta)."

Not worth squat if it was not notorised , lets hope the "legal" owner dose not try and claim it back :eek:

He could loose everything in this situation , the lesson to be learned here is never buy property on a private contract , Escritura and nota simple not presant? walk away or better still run!!

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Thanks for replying, Twistedmelon and Rotor.

Yes, he's got the original compra venta. The cottage is 400 years old and has never been registered. The vendors have no intention of claiming it, everyone knows they sold it and most of the male villagers were present when the deal was agreed - so they don't have any paperwork either, except their copy of the compra venta.

As for major changes to the structure; not much. A shed was rebuilt to make the bathroom, electricity and water were put on, and the garden has been terraced - hiding the septic tank (all done over 20 years ago).

Rotor - hindsight is a wonderful thing but doesn't really help in this case. I am asking how to proceed in the situation my friend is in, not whether he should have bought the place 25 years ago! (At that time, only relatively new houses were registered in this campo area. My place was built in the 1960's so appears on the Land Registry. My friend's cottage was built in the early 1600's when not a lot got written down!).

As there is no risk of the vendors claiming the cottage, are there any other pitfalls that might put my friend in danger of losing it?

Can anyone recommend a lawyer specialising in property matters in the Malaga area, please?

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

I was not trying to be little your friends actions , just wake potential property buyer in Spain of the pitfalls:)

I have a 100 plus year old cortijo , escritura and nota simple all presant along with the house being registered , I was green when I purchased but was lucky enough to drop on a good gestor.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Robin,
The part I find confusing is why and who are the company involved that are charging all this money. This could have been dealt with by a Gestor alone.
I wonder what the Gestor has to say about them.
Anyway, I can't offer any precise legal advice but I did want to just add that if your friends don't have the deeds they will not be able to sell the property as it is now illegal to sell a house without them, just a thought.
I wish them all the best and I'm sure they'll be gratefull to you for your help.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Hi Twistedmelon,

It is the Gestor who has taken the money..

My friend is unlikely ever to want to sell his cottage, he just wants everything correct legally (and is kicking himself that he didn't try and get it done earlier). :(

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Oh crikey it's the Gestor, well sadly dodgy officials are an accepted evil in Spain and therein finding a solicitor to look into this could be out the frying pan into the fire as they are as equally dodgy.
I suppose if they have already paid out a wadge to this Gestor then stick with it in the hope he has done his job, if he hasn't and the house is still not registered then they will have a case against him for recompense.
All the best.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

and good luck with that :eek:

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

:lol:Hope has to spring eternal here:unsure:

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

..We'll see what happens. My friend is going to see the Gestor tomorrow, and he also now has the number of a specialist property lawyer.

Thanks for your help so far, everyone.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

I'm sure feedback to the result would be of benefit to others here.
All the best

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Thanks for your good wishes. I find it interesting that no other foreigners have been through this process - it would appear that roughly a third of the houses in my friend's village have never been registered. That's if we have been told the truth by various locals over the past few days, of course.

At the moment the problem has had to take a step sideways; before the cottage can be registered, the Catastro has to be corrected. This is expected to take four months, and another 300€ bill.

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

So you find the nonsense that is the Spanish system interesting;);)
If anyone ever understood they would be running the country:thumbup:
I hate to be a doom munger but I wondered when the Catastro would rear it's head, of course it will all be fine:fingerscrossed:

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

Dear Robin

In principle, the main problem we see is the lack of title deeds (escritura de compraventa) and also the lack of registration at the land registry. There is a process regulated at Ley Hipotecaria which allows the registration of the house, but in order to do so, it is necessary to have 2 title deeds. These title deeds can be created in many ways without using a dodgy way, although it is necessary to study the particular case to see which is the most suitable option. For example (and it doesn't mean that this is the most suitable way for this particular case), if the vendor inherited the house but he didn't sign the inheritance acceptance deeds, he may have to do it now and after that to sign the purchase-sale title deeds. Then both title deeds will be registered, although the registration can be disputed by a third party with a valid, preference a proven right over the house for 2 years. After this 2 years, the registration will be valid against any third party.

<Snip>
Best regards

Javier Moya

Re: Problem registering old Spanish house
 

I have been following this thread with interest and wonder if you can explain who and where the "second" Registor is held. I have three Escrituras to cover my house:

1. The first was made when we purchased the plot.

2. The second was made when we got the building licence and commenced on site (that may be to do with the first release of money from a stage payment construction mortgage.

3. Registoring the finished construction on the plot and ensuring that it had the Licence to Occupy and that the built area complied with the planning permission and the building regulations.

All of these three have been Notarised and the notary has sent the details to the Land Registry. I have a Nota Simple for the plot. I have checked online and at last after 18mths my house has appeared on the SigPac view of the land register but not the google earth or maps. I have not requested a new Nota since the online version does not yet show the sq m of construction.

I pay my council tax which I think is based on the Cadastral? Register or should it be Catastral Register and I have no idea who where this is kept. Any info please?