Prices of horses in Spain
Oct 3rd 2010, 8:26 am
#33
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
The Asturias, a small northwestern Christian Iberian kingdom, initiated the Reconquista (the "reconquest") soon after the Islamic conquest in the 8th century. Christian states based in the north and west slowly extended their power over the rest of Iberia. The Navarre, Galicia, León, Portugal, Aragón, Catalonia or Marca Hispanica, and Castile began a process of expansion and internal consolidation during the next several centuries under the flag of Reconquista.
In 1212, a coalition of Christian kings under the leadership of Alfonso VIII of Castile drove the Muslims from Central Iberia. The Portuguese side of the Reconquista ended in 1249 with the conquest of the Algarve (Arabic الغرب — Al-Gharb) under Afonso III. He was the first Portuguese monarch to claim the title "King of Portugal and the Algarve".
The Moorish Kingdom of Granada continued for three more centuries in the southern Iberia. On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to armies of a recently united Christian Spain (after the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs). They forced the remaining Muslims and Jews to leave Spain, convert to Roman Catholic Christianity or be killed for not doing so. To exert social and religious control, in 1480, Isabella and Ferdinand agreed to allow the Inquisition in Spain.
In 1212, a coalition of Christian kings under the leadership of Alfonso VIII of Castile drove the Muslims from Central Iberia. The Portuguese side of the Reconquista ended in 1249 with the conquest of the Algarve (Arabic الغرب — Al-Gharb) under Afonso III. He was the first Portuguese monarch to claim the title "King of Portugal and the Algarve".
The Moorish Kingdom of Granada continued for three more centuries in the southern Iberia. On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to armies of a recently united Christian Spain (after the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs). They forced the remaining Muslims and Jews to leave Spain, convert to Roman Catholic Christianity or be killed for not doing so. To exert social and religious control, in 1480, Isabella and Ferdinand agreed to allow the Inquisition in Spain.
Oct 3rd 2010, 9:45 am
#34
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
Bit of all sorts, I expect. I've been told many times, "tienes pinta de español" so who knows? But we recognise this, as Gibson says, there seems to be "massive amnesia" on the part of many Spanish, instead prefering to believe they are untainted by Moorish or Jewish blood. You only have to look at most Andalucians, they have a very dark, arab look about them.
Oct 3rd 2010, 9:56 am
#35
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
No one is disputing that the impact of the Moors wasn't massive (and I actually agree that there must have been genetic crossover, just as there is Norman and Viking blood in Brits), but can people stop believing the myth that they controlled all of Spain for 800 years? Almost from the start the northern Christian areas of Asturias and Leon and Castlilla gained control. The last 300 years of that period the Moorish leaders only controlled city states in Andalucia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
Reminds me of the Lenny Henry line,
"Have you got any African in you? Would you like some?
Oct 3rd 2010, 10:14 am
#36
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
Given that the Moors started in 711, and they didn´t even start getting kicked out until 1212, that gave them at least 500 years in which to get to know the local girls. They could do a lot of damage in that time.
Reminds me of the Lenny Henry line,
"Have you got any African in you? Would you like some?
Reminds me of the Lenny Henry line,
"Have you got any African in you? Would you like some?
The post-Roman history of the city is largely the history of the Kingdom of Leon. The station of the legion in the territory of the Astures grew into an important city, which resisted the attacks of the Visigoths till A.D. 586, when it was taken by Leovigild; and it was one of the few cities which the Visigoths allowed to retain their fortifications. During the struggle with the Muslim invaders, the same fortress, which the Romans had built to protect the plain from the incursions of the mountaineers, became the advanced post which covered the mountain, as the last refuge of Cisastur Tribes.
Towards the year 846, a group of Mozarabs (Christians who did not flee from the Muslims and lived under the Muslim regime) tried to repopulate the city, but a Muslim attack prevented that initiative. In the year 856, under the Christian king Ordoño I, another attempt at repopulation was made and was successful. Alfonso III of León and García I of León made León city the capital of the Kingdom of León and the most important of the Christian cities in Iberia.
Towards the year 846, a group of Mozarabs (Christians who did not flee from the Muslims and lived under the Muslim regime) tried to repopulate the city, but a Muslim attack prevented that initiative. In the year 856, under the Christian king Ordoño I, another attempt at repopulation was made and was successful. Alfonso III of León and García I of León made León city the capital of the Kingdom of León and the most important of the Christian cities in Iberia.
The 1212 date you gave refers to central Spain. Even there, places were under dispute at different times for example Valencia which was finally taken in 1238, had previously been taken by El Cid's lot in 1094!
None of this affects the reality that the Moorish invaders affected a lot of Iberian society, and that in their Andalucian strongholds they held out for quite some time. But they did not control Spain/Iberia for 800 or even 500 years; most of the time it was a portion (often fluctuating, sometimes increasing, but over time eventually getting smaller and smaller)
Oct 3rd 2010, 2:17 pm
#37
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
Well, they controlled most of the South of Spain for at least a few hundred years. They never got anywhere near the North. When the Moorish armies went in the 9th century they were defeated by the Asturian King Pelayo which is when the Reconquest began and took another 5 centuries to be completed.
The Moors ruled their parts of Spain like the British ruled India, how many Indians have British genetics? Or in Bradford, how many mixed religion families are there? i.e. a Brit and a Muslim intermarrying? (very few I would think).
Of course there would have been some crossover, especially when the Moors got expelled, many decided to convert to Christianity so they could stay in Spain.
However, gentic tests have shown that only a tiny percent of the Spanish population have key genetic markers that identify them as decendents of North Africans. I think the figure is about 7%. This percentage is no greater than for Brits, Germans or the French.
As for Andalucians being dark, so are the Basques, and they have zero African genetics. While the Asturians, some Galicians and Catalans are much blonder, because they are ancestors of Celtic tribes.
The situation is complex, and everyone is a mix of everyone else of course. There is only one human race after all, and anyone who tries to divide it up into sub-races is really only doing so for racist or political reasons.
However, the Northen African influence is constantly overstated in English speaking press, probably as much as it has been understated in Spanish press until very recently.
The Moors ruled their parts of Spain like the British ruled India, how many Indians have British genetics? Or in Bradford, how many mixed religion families are there? i.e. a Brit and a Muslim intermarrying? (very few I would think).
Of course there would have been some crossover, especially when the Moors got expelled, many decided to convert to Christianity so they could stay in Spain.
However, gentic tests have shown that only a tiny percent of the Spanish population have key genetic markers that identify them as decendents of North Africans. I think the figure is about 7%. This percentage is no greater than for Brits, Germans or the French.
As for Andalucians being dark, so are the Basques, and they have zero African genetics. While the Asturians, some Galicians and Catalans are much blonder, because they are ancestors of Celtic tribes.
The situation is complex, and everyone is a mix of everyone else of course. There is only one human race after all, and anyone who tries to divide it up into sub-races is really only doing so for racist or political reasons.
However, the Northen African influence is constantly overstated in English speaking press, probably as much as it has been understated in Spanish press until very recently.
Oct 3rd 2010, 2:27 pm
#38
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
There were thousands of marriages and interbreeding (shit I hate that phrase when it concerns humans) but given there are a billion Indians the dilution is immense, there were not billions of Spaniards. Oh and in reference to you Celt comment, Blue eyes and Bond hair are NOT Celtic traits, they are Scandinavian ones, the Celts were genetically dark haired, hazel or dark eyed, although there are a very few who have bluey green eyes and many were quite Swarthy... according to Pliny of course, I'm sure you know different.
Oct 3rd 2010, 2:48 pm
#39
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
There were thousands of marriages and interbreeding (shit I hate that phrase when it concerns humans) but given there are a billion Indians the dilution is immense, there were not billions of Spaniards. Oh and in reference to you Celt comment, Blue eyes and Bond hair are NOT Celtic traits, they are Scandinavian ones, the Celts were genetically dark haired, hazel or dark eyed, although there are a very few who have bluey green eyes and many were quite Swarthy... according to Pliny of course, I'm sure you know different.
And it is well known that Asturian culture is Celtic. Hence they play bagpipes, drink cider, eat lots of cheese etc etc
There is no Scandinavean influence in Asturias.
Oct 3rd 2010, 3:49 pm
#40
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Oct 3rd 2010, 4:16 pm
#41
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
The Celtic tribes are known to have lots of people with blue eyes which is why lots of Spaniards from the North Coast of Spain have them. Nothing to do with the Vikings, they never came to Spain!
Oct 3rd 2010, 4:22 pm
#42
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Oct 3rd 2010, 5:16 pm
#43
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
CMan
If there are a lot of blue eyed people in Asturias I guess must be from visiting Vikings plus Scandanavian traders, and sailors on ships bringing salted fish to Spain.
As for Celtic people I think of them with brown eyes flaming red or auburn hair or darker, good in bed and meat eaters.
Anyhow had a good larf at lot at your ridiculous comment on Celtic culture as being characterised by bagpipe playing, drinking lots of cider and cheese
If there are a lot of blue eyed people in Asturias I guess must be from visiting Vikings plus Scandanavian traders, and sailors on ships bringing salted fish to Spain.
As for Celtic people I think of them with brown eyes flaming red or auburn hair or darker, good in bed and meat eaters.
Anyhow had a good larf at lot at your ridiculous comment on Celtic culture as being characterised by bagpipe playing, drinking lots of cider and cheese
Oct 3rd 2010, 5:26 pm
#44
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
And what exactly does this all have to do with the price of horses in Spain?
Please keep to the topic - it was a perfectly reasonable question from the OP to ask.
If you wish to discuss the ethnicity of the Spanish (people not horses) then please start another thread.
Please keep to the topic - it was a perfectly reasonable question from the OP to ask.
If you wish to discuss the ethnicity of the Spanish (people not horses) then please start another thread.
Oct 3rd 2010, 5:42 pm
#45
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Re: Prices of horses in Spain
CMan
If there are a lot of blue eyed people in Asturias I guess must be from visiting Vikings plus Scandanavian traders, and sailors on ships bringing salted fish to Spain.
As for Celtic people I think of them with brown eyes flaming red or auburn hair or darker, good in bed and meat eaters.
Anyhow had a good larf at lot at your ridiculous comment on Celtic culture as being characterised by bagpipe playing, drinking lots of cider and cheese
If there are a lot of blue eyed people in Asturias I guess must be from visiting Vikings plus Scandanavian traders, and sailors on ships bringing salted fish to Spain.
As for Celtic people I think of them with brown eyes flaming red or auburn hair or darker, good in bed and meat eaters.
Anyhow had a good larf at lot at your ridiculous comment on Celtic culture as being characterised by bagpipe playing, drinking lots of cider and cheese
I dont know much about the price of horses in Spain, but if the horse in question, drinks cider, eats cheese and plays the bagpipes, I am sure it would be more expensive than one that doesnt do those things.
The price would rocket for bagpipe playing, you could hire it out for weddings and such..