Pensions

Old Dec 17th 2010, 3:27 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by cricketman
I knew someone would say that

When I spent most of my time in Catalunya and Asturias I thought the British people were exagerating when they said everything in Spain was done on the black. It certainly isnt up there, in fact one of the nationalist arguments for Catalunya is that they want to stop subsidising Andalucia where everything is done on the black, which means Andalucia are not contributing their share of the taxes.

When we came to Andalucia, it seemed you could pay everyone officially or unofficially (except if a large company is involved). We still mainly pay legally because many things we want an invoice for, for tax reasons. But at least you do have the choice to do things legally.

It seems many British tradesman and workers are illegal through and through -and the reason I posted in the first place is just to say that the language is not an excuse, nor is ignorance or beurocracy. Before people move to Spain they know that the language of Spain is Spanish so they should get on with it!
So what's the usual Spanish excuse ?

The Northern cities of Spain have almost always created more wealth and jobs than the rest of the country, so no great surprise if more of them can work legally, than elsewhere.
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 3:38 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
So what's the usual Spanish excuse ?

The Northern cities of Spain have almost always created more wealth and jobs than the rest of the country, so no great surprise if more of them can work legally, than elsewhere.
I dont know, I know mainly Northern Spaniards, who dont do it

I know Andalucians through playing football and on a casual basis, but dont know anything about their invoicing habits!

I am sure it is something to with the culture, you see other people doing it and getting away with it, so you might as well.

My Asturian friends say in terms of business, culture and education they are more like the British then the Andalucians. A lot of Northern Spaniards look down on the Southerners as the uneducated, slightly embarassing little cousin.
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 4:38 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by cricketman
You're assuming that people can CHOOSE to work only 30 hours a week. Even if they wanted to, very few employers would agree to that except for very unskilled jobs and shift work.
No.. I'm not "assuming" anything. I'm suggesting a near-utopian idea where everyone could work, by everyone working shorter hours. I know some people can't suspend their disbelief enough to forget everything they know about the working week as it stands. And that's why I know it won't happen.
There is an unbalance in society. It's actually in the top sector of society's interests to keep an underclass, and keep the middle working too long hours, paying for everything and blaming said underclass, while ignoring the real root of the problem! Oh and BTW. before I get accused of it, I'm not a communist either.
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 4:42 pm
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by angiescarr
No.. I'm not "assuming" anything. I'm suggesting a near-utopian idea where everyone could work, by everyone working shorter hours. I know some people can't suspend their disbelief enough to forget everything they know about the working week as it stands. And that's why I know it won't happen.
There is an unbalance in society. It's actually in the top sector of society's interests to keep an underclass, and keep the middle working too long hours, paying for everything and blaming said underclass, while ignoring the real root of the problem! Oh and BTW. before I get accused of it, I'm not a communist either.
Hey, I am a freelancer, some weeks I week 80 hours - and others none at all!

I think hours should be completely flexible, as long as there was a better way of managing productivity and worth rather than in hours! Very difficult
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 5:07 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by cricketman
I dont know, I know mainly Northern Spaniards, who dont do it

I know Andalucians through playing football and on a casual basis, but dont know anything about their invoicing habits!

I am sure it is something to with the culture, you see other people doing it and getting away with it, so you might as well.

My Asturian friends say in terms of business, culture and education they are more like the British then the Andalucians. A lot of Northern Spaniards look down on the Southerners as the uneducated, slightly embarassing little cousin.
Spaniards from Madrid and Northern Spain often refer to the Andaluz people as The Flintstones.
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 5:12 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by cricketman
Hey, I am a freelancer, some weeks I week 80 hours - and others none at all!

I think hours should be completely flexible, as long as there was a better way of managing productivity and worth rather than in hours! Very difficult
Of course, the self employed are a different matter. 'But the masses' aren't self employed. And I think you'd get better productivity from people working shorter hours. We are so entrenched in the thought that time working equals value. Just not true!
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 5:13 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by cricketman
I dont know, I know mainly Northern Spaniards, who dont do it

I know Andalucians through playing football and on a casual basis, but dont know anything about their invoicing habits!

I am sure it is something to with the culture, you see other people doing it and getting away with it, so you might as well.

My Asturian friends say in terms of business, culture and education they are more like the British then the Andalucians. A lot of Northern Spaniards look down on the Southerners as the uneducated, slightly embarassing little cousin.
And the Andalucians don't care!
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 5:21 pm
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Default Re: Pensions

Most of the job vacancies in the Uk nowadays are part time so that companies don't have to give the same conditions.

There's also IMO far too many companies going over to agency workers so they can simply say, "sorry we don't need you tomorrow," and your gone. I know some do offer contracts and benefits but they are few.

Handy for pensioners though.
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 5:27 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by angiescarr
And the Andalucians don't care!
Yes you're right! The Andalucians are very proud people.

In my Spanish class many years ago now, I told the teacher that my Spanish friends were complaining that life is difficult for young people in Spain now because wages are low and property expensive.

She said "Rubbish, life has never been better for young people in Spain". Then she asked me where my friend were from. I said Asturias, and she replied "Well, they are all rather backwards up there"
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 7:27 pm
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by angiescarr
We are so entrenched in the thought that time working equals value. Just not true!
"Spain’s population work amongst the longest hours of any of the EU’s member states, but also manage the lowest levels of productivity"
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 7:49 pm
  #86  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
So what's the usual Spanish excuse ?

The Northern cities of Spain have almost always created more wealth and jobs than the rest of the country, so no great surprise if more of them can work legally, than elsewhere.
For many years it was the Andalusians and Extremadurans, working in places like Barcelona and Bilbao who really created the wealth. Same in the UK, northerners (and Irish) did much of the hard work in London. They're written off as workshy scroungers now
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Old Dec 17th 2010, 8:49 pm
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
For many years it was the Andalusians and Extremadurans, working in places like Barcelona and Bilbao who really created the wealth. Same in the UK, northerners (and Irish) did much of the hard work in London. They're written off as workshy scroungers now
Really created the wealth? You mean they were cheap labour

Just like all the immigrants in Spain (and the UK) have been over the past 5-10 years.

I wouldnt call them wealth creators though. They are the people who create the businesses and give jobs to people.
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Old Dec 18th 2010, 7:35 pm
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
For many years it was the Andalusians and Extremadurans, working in places like Barcelona and Bilbao who really created the wealth. Same in the UK, northerners (and Irish) did much of the hard work in London. They're written off as workshy scroungers now
Hmm Andalucians know how to balance work and play. Because of it people from other parts of the country, and the world are jealous. As for wealth creation....what is wealth? To me it's the oranges, Serrano ham and olives you'll be munching this Christmas, washed down with a good sherry. Perhaps a few persimmons and custard apples if you're that way inclined. The strawberries that appear in Sainsburys in January and the olive oil you enjoy all the year round. When other sources of wealth become unimportant... you'll still want to eat what the Andalucian sun, and the Andalucian people produce.
(yes I know the fruit pickers are often immigrants. But that's the same all over the world. Mostly because we don't give our 'daily bread' the value it deserves.
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Old Dec 19th 2010, 8:18 am
  #89  
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Default Re: Pensions

Originally Posted by angiescarr
Hmm Andalucians know how to balance work and play. Because of it people from other parts of the country, and the world are jealous. As for wealth creation....what is wealth? To me it's the oranges, Serrano ham and olives you'll be munching this Christmas, washed down with a good sherry. Perhaps a few persimmons and custard apples if you're that way inclined. The strawberries that appear in Sainsburys in January and the olive oil you enjoy all the year round. When other sources of wealth become unimportant... you'll still want to eat what the Andalucian sun, and the Andalucian people produce.
(yes I know the fruit pickers are often immigrants. But that's the same all over the world. Mostly because we don't give our 'daily bread' the value it deserves.
Spoken as atrue "incomer".
The things you have described are the normal staple diet of Spain.

So wealth is eating olive oil??

Olive oil and serrano ham have been around forever, but it did not stop the immigrants leaving Spain in great numbers, because they were dirt poor.

What you have described is somthing a bit more "exotic and different" to the norm in the UK, and is a question of eating habits,no more, no less.

try telling someone who cannot afford to go to the dentist, that they are wealthy because they can eat a strawberry.

Try telling someone who has a below living wage that they are wealthy becasue they are able to eat an orange grown locally.

And as for the comment about people from Spain and the rest of the world being jealous of people from Andalucia, you are stark raving mad.

You reckon the the whole of Spain are lamenting their misfortune of not being Andaluz?

On behalf of me and mine I find that comment quite insulting, as though the rest of us have no pride in our roots or regions.

I can tell you that the answer is no, no more than the whole of the UK population is not totally destroyed at not being born in London, Devon or The Lake District.

Last edited by JLFS; Dec 19th 2010 at 8:26 am.
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Old Dec 19th 2010, 10:01 am
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Default Re: Pensions

Absolutely terrific reply JL.

I was wondering when I read the post about olives and jamon that surely that was the staple diet for people in Andalucia? And that being able to eat olives at Christmas or an orange straight from the tree did not in any way make you rich.

You said it much better that I could have, well done.

(I was not allowed to give you Karma as I must 'spread it around' apparently!).

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