JLFS

Some of the things that you have mentioned are quite expensive in Spain too, and there are thousands of pensioners who receive a pension of four hundred and odd euros a month with no extras.

The pensioners in the UK that get the amount we are talking about should count themselves lucky, well the are if you compare them to their Spanish counterparts.

The Spanish that live in the UK are NOT rushing to get back to Spain when their savings run out and they cannot manage living in a foreign country any more, whereas the British head back to the UK, that should tell you where the people are better off if they have made no provison for themselves.

scampicat

Well you can have up to £10k in savings without means-tested benefits being affected at all.

It beats me why people would rather rely on a means-tested benefit that can be removed on a Government's whim, than make their own provision if they can.

I have pensions which are my own, they are my entitlement, no-one can take them away. I do not have to answer to anyone for them, show anyone my bank statements, I can live with whom I wish where I wish, I can have as much other income/savings as I like, without my pensions being affected...

The downside?..oh yes, I have to pay my own Council Tax instead of other taxpayers doing it for me.

Relying on means-tested benefits, unless you have absolutely no choice, is very short-sighted, imho.

JLFS

Of course, that is right, if you have managed to sort out your own adequate provision for your old age, then you have no means testing, which means answering to no-one.

agoreira

That's right, and the State Pension is an added bonus!

steviedeluxe

The people I'm referring to, wonder what's the point in investing in pensions when a ) they've not performed well in recent years b ) you can always claim the pension credit anyway if you don't have private pension/savings.
Of course the flaw in this is that the Government may not keep the payments going in the future, but folk who are struggling now (remember a lot of folk do not have regular work and are on agency or short-term contracts) may easily decide to risk going without 20 or 30 years later...
I agree that it's better to sort out your own pension (or even choose a job where you can keep working), but I can understand why many see it the other way.

EDIT: Of course others decided to invest in property as their pension - the third option I suppose. So long as they bought at a low level and can keep renting out they haven't done so bad, so far..

bil

It does seem rather unfair that those who have saved and tried to put a bit aside are stripped of it if they do end up with problems, whereas those who have pissed every penny up the wall are paid for by the state.

agoreira

Agree 100%, it does seem very unfair, and I might well end up in that position one day, and I'll agree 110%! However, the pot of available money is not a bottomless pit, and there are those that have always been in poorly paid jobs, that have not had the chance to save, do we abandon them? It's a bit like stopping the Child Allowance for the rich, they've paid their share of tax, why shouldn't they have it? But equally, if cuts have to be made, they could probably well live without it. Don't know, either way, it can seem unfair. My kids are always telling me, spend it Dad, leave sod all behind!

scampicat

Of course I agree that those who have not been able to make adequate pension provision for themselves should be looked after by the State.

However those who HAVE been able to make provision should do so. If they can afford to pay for themselves they should do.

Where is the unfairness in that?

On a money saving forum that I frequent, you get loads of people asking 'how can I hide/give away/ lose/ otherwise dispose of/ this £50k that I have in savings, or this second house that I have inherited, so that the State will pay my Council Tax for me?'. Some even want to refuse an inheritance so that the State will pay. Where this attitude that the State should pay for them comes from I have no idea, but it is infuriating.

Dick Dasterdly

So in certain circumstances you could be arguing that ppl who have behaved wrecklessly and stupidly squandered everything away, should be paid for by ppl.who are acting responsibly and paying their taxes, whilst trying to save up for their own retirement at the same time ?

scampicat

I was actually saying that some people through always having low-paid jobs, family commitments, sickness, disability etc, will never be able to save much of a Pension through no fault of their own and these people should be helped by the State and that those that ARE able to make provision for themselves should do. So the first lot of people will have their basic State Pension topped up by means-tested Benefits, the second lot will have a personal or occupational pension as well as their State Pension, and no means-testing.

Of course there will always be freeloaders, this is just due to being a part of society.

JLFS

That sounds fair to me. Not all that have failed to make provision for the pensions have frittered it away, they just could not afford it.

And the point about freeloaders will happen whatever we are talking about, be it jobseekers allowance, income support or incapacity benefit, fraud or misuse cannot be prevented 100 per cent.

scampicat

Thank you, a man who understands!

(I take it you have forgiven me for my remark about Spanish food?)

JLFS

No, not yet I havent, comments like that really cut deep you know.

scampicat

Oh dear, sorry!

JLFS

I am over it now....