Only in Spain
 

Re: Only in Spain
 

What about his boss? Not to notice that one of your workers has not been into the office for 6 years is somewhat of an oversight to say the least. Or are Spanish functionarios constantly run off their feet?
When I was a departmental manager long long ago, I once did a night shift for one of my workers and found that he had been slipping away back to his wife ( as she was scared of the dark!) in the middle of his night shift ( one week in three) then came back at 6.00 am to complete his paperwork. Turns out that he had got other workers to do his job for him, Nobody told me anything and this had been going on for about 6 months. Who should have been sacked? Him for doing it, or me for not finding out sooner?

Re: Only in Spain
 

With regard to Spanish civil servants all things are possible.

In the first instance it's not what you know but who you know to get a cushy number for life with zero possibility of losing your job no matter how crap you may be at performing the necessary tasks.

I recall an article about civil servant scams from a couple of years back where there were "workers" drawing regular salaries from three separate jobs and only occasionally turning up for one of them.

Re: Only in Spain
 

'Mornin' all. Yes, Dick Dastardly, that story sounds quite typical and didn't surprise me in the least. It's bloody chaos - but because they're so relaxed and cheerful about it, one doesn't realise at first how bad it is. Cushy number, being a civil servant in Spain.
There's a different thread asking whether people have regrets about coming here. I was going to reply, but it turned into the usual boring British (I think mostly English) discussion about house prices, exchange rates, gains and losse, as though those were the main criteria for assessing one's life.
I absolutely regret having come. I'd been several times, for up to 6 months twice, more briefly three times, and was under the enchantment of Spain, but coming back this last time was one of the worst decisions of my life and it needn't have been, if it weren't for the staggering corruption, carelessness, ignorance, inefficiency and - I hate to say it, but there's a kind of impenetrable stupidity. It's not that the Spanish aren't nice or that Spain isn't lovely and pleasant in lots of ways - I think it's just that they took one almighty leap from being practically medieval to being modern, all in 40 years, so there's no background or tradition of .. ..Well, I'll probably start a huge row just by what I've already written, so I won't make it worse, but please understand that I'm not being anti-Spanish-individuals, only anti-Spanish-corruption, which, together with a laid-back, olé mañana, no pasa nada attitude, is disastrous in many ways, in many fields - law and law enforcement, medicine, "environement" and ecology (a dirty word to many) and politics.

Podemos? I doubt it - probably too late, but best wishes anyway.

Re: Only in Spain
 

I´m interested to know how politicians taking brown envelopes of cash turned your decision of coming to Spain into the worst decision of your life?

Re: Only in Spain
 

Um, from the way your question is phrased (and from a few posts I've seen elsewhere) I estimate that it's more a like-to-argue-and-win question than one expressing serious interest, so I'll only point out that I didn't mention brown envelopes and did say that a whole set of attitudes permeates every system. You may want to know how I personally have been affected, but you don't need to, whether or not you wish to discuss the central point.

Re: Only in Spain
 

If all the posts on this forum were on a need-to-know basis then it would not last very long:rofl:

Re: Only in Spain
 

The reason why I am interested is that however disorganised or "corrupt" a system is, it really doesnt affect an individual very much in their day to day lives

In fact, except for the odd useless funcionario, the people you deal with in such systems are generally very friendly, so that could be seen as an advantage

I have been in Spain 9 years now, and some things are incredibly frustrating. When I lived in the UK, different things were incredibly frustrating, but how good my life is in Spain depends on me and to a lesser extent my partner and perhaps my employer, nobody else. Just like it did when I lived in the UK

Re: Only in Spain
 

Everyone that I speak to say that they are ashamed of the corruption in their country but are realistic enough to know that there is little they personally can do about it apart from when they are voting.

Rosemary

Re: Only in Spain
 

Yet they still favour the most rotten to the core, corrupt party of all :confused:

With regard to local officialdom previous convictions appear to be absolutely no obstacle at all to them regaining their previous positions of authority and continuing in their old ways.

Unfortunately it's an accepted and ingrained every day way of life throughout much of Spanish society and other than the major corruption scandals which have been hitting the headlines recently, anything else is regarded as business as normal.

However much as mentioned previously, as long as it doesn't directly affect my lifestyle I don't lose any sleep over it myself and it doesn't greatly affect my enjoyment of Spain.

Re: Only in Spain
 

In my locality they seem to have well and truly changed their political views and voted differently recently however, they are also aware that few can be trusted.

Rosemary

Re: Only in Spain
 

There's an interesting ongoing situation with regard to the next Govt.

I wonder if anyone holds out any hope of a new broom sweeping clean, should it come to pass ?

As long as such massive corruption is ingrained at Govt levels and possibly with Royalty also, it's highly unlikely things will improve further down the order.

Re: Only in Spain
 

I remember thinking that, in fact I remember saying it. Now, I can see how very foolish and unthinking that was. Of course the ethos of any organisation or group, be it family, company, nation or other group, will permate and affect everything to a greater or lesser extent.

I think that what you really mean is that, so far, the bad side of things hasn't affected you or your family and you've probably been in a fairly privileged position. People who've been lucky often atribute their happy situation to their own merit and people who've been oppressed or abused or had very bad luck often blame themselves unfairly.

Also, you'rte assuming that only the bad things that happen to me are of concern or would make me regret having come; it's quite possible to mind a lot about things that don't hurt me directly, you know.

Everyone knows about the injustices, shortcuts and corruption in housing and building construction; you can't pretend that those haven't harmed hundreds of thousands of people (and no, I'm not talking about the British who wouldn't listen to sense or conscience and built their damn villas where they shouldn't, but about ordinary Spanish people who lost their lievlihoods and their homes quite unecessarily, smal firms bankrupted, projects unfinished or unoccupied.. Then there are the encroachments on National Parks and Natural Parks - you may think that doesn't affect you, but it may, eventually, and it affects everyone because “No Man is an Island.”

Medicine: I could write paragraphs, pages about the failures and harm - all undeclared, ignored, uncompensated - and if I feel less tired I'll write a bit about it. For example, the chief doctor in my pueblo hads been here for over 30 years, smokes like a chimney and is universally believed to take illegal drugs, constantly misdiagnoses and has often prescribed the wrong drugs and nearly killed people and has certainly killed or contributed largely to several deaths to my knowledge - but he's still here, stoned and comfortable. There's no agency or scheme such as the USA Medwatch, the British Yellow Card system, the French ANSMPS (we know that adverse drug events and medical events are terribly under-reported everywhere, usually fewer than 10%, but here they aren't reported at all) and only the prescribing doctor can make the report (otherwise it's a denuncia, which of course is quite different.) I don't know what percentage of the Spanish GPD comes from the laboratries manufacturing generic drugs, but it's a big sector and generics make a lotta profit and do not, by law, have to carry the same warnings as the original patented drug. I know sooo many people who are permanently damaged, in some cases very gravely, by medical treatment, including botched operations, but they don't complain and there's really no road by which they can complain - you have to be rich enough to have a posh abogado and spend years fighting (in which case you probably wouldn't need to.) I know soo many Spanish people who've been and/or are still being seriously, irreversibly damaged by medical carelessness or ignorance I mean really very sreiously – and there's nothing for them, no appeal. I've met doctors who think that benzo-diazepines are pà inkillers, people who are on ten different drugs although they only had one illness to start with and nine of the ten are redundant and harmful. (I've seen three people stop the drugs and become healthy and seem twenty years younger!) I've even seen government or official medical statements telling people not to worry that they're prescribed drugs that have been withdrawn elsewhere, 'cos it's “because, being Spanish, you're genetically immune to harm from those drugs.” I'm not claiming that dreadful mistakes and negligence don't happen elsewhere, but in Spain there's far less possibility of compensation or complaint.

Law, law enforcement and justice: the same – what about the young woman murdered twenty years ago at a petrol station, CCTV recorded ir, the criminal is known – nothing happened and now the statute of limitations has expired – oh, well, no pasa nada, olé fiesta. I read of two families/ couples on the coast who caught robbers in their houses, one was wounded, there were photos, criminal identified – that was 5 years ago, still nothing. Or the phoney gas inspectors, who visit here twice a year ripping off pensioners (and nicked 100€ from my purse) and are known and identified, but nothing happens. I could go on and on and onner.

Black economy: half the pueblo are working balck while claiming the paro, or are simply working black. All three plumers and all five painters here are qualified, but they don't declare themselves as doing those self-employed jobs, but as casual field workers, so they're covered for national insurance but needn't declare or keep accounts or charge TVA. (No-one would employ them here if they did it lefally, 'cos they'd have to charge more than people here can/will pay.) The estate agent here (English) and three corredoras – the corredoras don't declare, of course, but the estate agent is nearly always paid in cash or in sterling into her mother's U.K. Account, the people at the notaría all know and never say a word; the local abogado will tell you she's cheated and tricked countless clients, but he still does all her sales!

Of course any national characteristic will affect everything that happens and the history and geography of a country have formed the national character. Spain has a harsh history, perhaps because it has a harsh geography, a history of oppression by the church, by the aristocracy, by dictators.. Most of the older and middle-aged people are hardly literate and the “alternative” information available is minimal even if you can understand it. Well, I'll shut up now, but if you think that corruption is limited tyo a few brown envelopes and doesn't affect the whole population and everything else, then you don't understand as much as you think you do.

Pollution – shocking over-use of chemicals in farming – the land is dying.
There's no need to tell me that most Spanish people are friendly – I know that and it's not really relevant.

(I lived in France most of my adult life, so my comparisons are with France, not the U.K.) No olé fiesta in France – it can even be quite depressing – but oh how I miss it.

Why d'you think so many people are angry about the corruption, why d'you think Podemos got a surprisingly large number of seats despite being brand new and so different, if corruption at high levels doesn't hurt ordinary people, animals and the land?

Re: Only in Spain
 

At the end of the day corruption affects us all, but it will affect people in different ways, so obviously cm won't see it like you do. I agree with some of your points, but it's not just Spain that's corrupt. The whole world is corrupt and we are only better off, because we might take advantage of others. It starts when you buy a banana for example. We want the lowest price and best quality, but can only get that if some worker in Costa Rica works for nothing, so in one way we all support corruption. Of course there is fairtrade, but those workers are still worse off than others.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Top post - wish I could write as succinctly Of course, we don't really live in Spain or France or the Youkay, we live in Coca-Colaland, Bayerland, Monsantoland, Petroland, and are all colluding to a greater or lesser extent. Goodbye world.
Oh look - there's a moving picture. hang on.. :goodpost: There!

Re: Only in Spain
 

I think it'd take ages, probably two or three generations, because it is, as you say, so ingrained at every level and of course everyone's interdependent, so even if you aren't cheatinh or incompetent, your brother-in-law may be, and there's a culture of not-telling and no wonder, considering the history.

(One of my best friends' husband is a hunter and, as well as having been a game-keeper, is an inveterate poacher. They have a poor stuffed female genet which he shot; everyone knows nd i know that i should report them, but I haven't because they've been so kind to me. So I'm being corrupt, too. (I have told him how wicked he is, though,, and that it serves him right that his shoulder hurts and his tendon's snapped, so he has trouble shooting - hah! And I've convinced his wife so that she's stopped him from shooting thrushes (zorzales.))

Re: Only in Spain
 

Much the same way I see it.

Most Spaniards have been very friendly, helpful and courteous to me, so the three wise monkeys apply.;)

Re: Only in Spain
 

To go back to post 13, for me one of the saddest things of all has been the destruction by piecemeal development of almost the entire coastline.

Unlike in many other possibly corrupt Med countries, there are very few pretty little coastal villages left in anything like their original state.

Many blame it on international tourism, yet the worst examples I have seen were developed and are still being used for and by Spanish people.

Huge hideous concrete blocks, mostly without any infrastructure, used mainly by inland Spaniards as weekend or holiday homes, though a few seem to have moved into them permanently.

Re: Only in Spain
 

The coastline is very nice from Cadiz to Huelva. It´s also beautiful on the Costa Brava and most of the Atlantic Coast

The worst offenders are the Costa del Sol and Costa Blanca - which happens to be where most the British people hangout, so it is what they see

Spain has lots of problems, but it isnt nearly as bad as some on here would like us to believe

Re: Only in Spain
 

True and the reasons why Brits don't hang out there, is because of the following:


Cadiz to Huelva = apparently too windy



Costa Brava = apparently not hot enough



Atlantic Coast = apparently too wet & cold

Re: Only in Spain
 

The Costas del Sol and Blanca are the worst affected I agree, but having travelled all of the coastline at one time and another there are very few unaffected areas and Spain has suffered much more from piecemeal coastal development than any other Med country I have visited.

Fortunately once again it's no great problem for me out here in the sticks.

There are no Liitle Britain communities near me, but lots of mainly Spanish weekend homes widely scattered around the area, never any two alike.
They are not so unattractive as the coastal concrete jungle, even though at first sight it appears they have been developed and built by their owners with very few restrictions as regards design and planning.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Also good points.

Could also add Almeria and Murcia, probably hot enough, but dry, dusty and desert like outside of the developed areas.

Re: Only in Spain
 

In general it is pretty hard to find undeveloped areas along the coast and city people will probably have a different view than people from a small village. What I like about the Costa Brava is that it is kind of developed, but you can still find untouched areas and even more developed touristic areas like Lloret don't have the high rises you'd see in Benidorm, or at least there's a height limit.



Thanks to the climate the North of Spain is still undeveloped in many parts. Costa Brava in winter is great, but I don't think I could cope in summer with all the people. That's why I would like the West of Ireland in summer and Costa Brava in winter, if I was retired.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Don't forget your brolly for Ireland and your thermal undies for the Costa Brava in Winter. ;)

Re: Only in Spain
 

Never needed a brolly and never needed thermal undies :-). It might get cold in the evenings/mornings on the Costa Brava, but depending where you are it's still mild and sunny in the winter and very quiet.



And Ireland in summer is amazing. Not too hot, less rainfall than Sydney, empty beaches in many parts and nearly 17 hours of daylight in June. I'll happily take the bad weather :lol:.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Just had to check it out because your version seems at odds with that of virtually every person I know who has holidays in W. Ireland.

From Wiki.
"The prevailing wind blows from the southwest, breaking on the high mountains of the west coast. Rainfall is therefore a particularly prominent part of western Irish life, with Valentia Island, off the west coast of County Kerry, getting almost twice as much annual rainfall as Dublin on the east (1,400 mm or 55.1 in vs. 762 mm or 30.0 in)."

Not to worry, as my pals in Sweden are always telling me,
There's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes.;)

Re: Only in Spain
 

Never trust Wiki too much as it can be changed by anyone:-). It is right though that Valentia Island get's a lot more rain, but I've been trying to explain that to people for years now. Just because one weather station in the atlantic close to mountains get's more rain, doesn't mean the whole West gets that amount and it's no different in Spain.


Many people think the further North you are in Spain, the wetter it is.I've posted it before, but Gibraltar is a lot wetter in winter than most parts of the Costa Brava and one of the rainiest locations is in the South.

Re: Only in Spain
 

The Costa de la Luz (light) used to be called the Costa del Viento (wind.) It was changed make it attractive after tourism was invented, but the wind there is truly horrible. It's called the levante, it comes from the Sahara and thereabouts and often deposits a layer of desert sand over cars and everything. It has a terrible psychological and physical effect on many people - your head aches, you feel confused, depressed, tired and slightly mad, just as badly indoors as out. It's well known that the number of suicides at Tarifa rises during a oeriod of levante (which usually lasts 5 or 10 days) and it was always said that sailors from other lands, who docked at Cádiz, were liable to go crazy and fight and commit murders (more than usual.)
Further inland, a similar wind is called the Solano and is horrid, but less so and rarely lasts as long.
I saw the Levante devastate a campsite - there were eucalyptus trees everywhere, with their shallow roots, and they were toppling onto awnings and tents (those that hadn't already blown away.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Still a nice place to go on holiday. I go most years :thumbup:

Re: Only in Spain
 

Sounds a bit like Fuerteventura.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Every area has its' pros and cons, but sometimes people do make the mistake to judge a whole area. Just because the area you live is windy/wetter/sunnier in general, doesn't mean that it affects everyone in the same way. You'll find plenty of microclimates when you have 200 km of coast.

Re: Only in Spain
 

Including Galicia? - lots of nice coastline there ;)

Re: Only in Spain
 

And returninng to Post 13 and the title "Only in Spain," it's the only country that hasn't compensated thalidomide victims.
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif
Thalidomide: how men who blighted lives of thousands evaded justice | Society | The Guardian
https://www.change.org/p/gr%C3%BCnen...domida-como-yo

How wicked is that?

Re: Only in Spain
 

Part of the very few I mentioned.;)
A while since I was up there but I do recall one or two favourite spots on the coast, it would be nice to think they still haven't been messed up yet.
Inland Galicia is quite interesting also.

I crossed the border there into Portugal a few times as well, couldn't believe how backward it was at the time, not that I minded, I really enjoyed it.

Re: Only in Spain
 

I bet, if one lived there, it'd be very, very interesting indeed, because it's one of the ancient Celtic nations, with Cornwall, Cymru (Wales, País de los Gales) Isle of Man, Eire, Scotland - misty, magical, proud, brave, independent, free-thinking, musical, tough and of high intelligence.
Once I was on a ferry from Plymouth to Roscoff a couple of days before St. Patrick's Day; there were lots of musicains, amateur and some professional, from those places and they told me that they'd met one year and had kept on ever since going back to Roscoff to play in the streets and bars. It wasn't formalised - they all just turned up. At about 11 p.m. a couple started playing, then more and more un til there were more than forty players, of all ages and with all the wierd instruments they have, all jamming and in such harmonyy of understanding - they played all night - it was so uplifting, I couldn't tear myself away.