Numbers
Feb 14th 2010, 4:38 pm
#16
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Feb 14th 2010, 4:39 pm
#17
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Re: Numbers
They don't tie up NIE and padron nor tax office info. etc.
An addition.
I don't if everyone realises that with your NIE the tax office can find every bank account you might have in Spain, plus all your major purchases etc.
And those electric and IBI accounts which people pay by cash so the tax man won't find out how long they spend here.
Its really easy for the tax-man in Spain, who also has direct computer links with the Customs and Excise tax offices in UK.
Last edited by johncar61; Feb 14th 2010 at 4:51 pm.
Feb 14th 2010, 4:46 pm
#18
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Re: Numbers
Exactly. They know you're here, they just don't know who to give the money to.
Which makes it even stranger than some places can be so picky when you try to register - don't they want the money?
Which makes it even stranger than some places can be so picky when you try to register - don't they want the money?
Feb 14th 2010, 5:01 pm
#19
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Location: Valencia area
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Re: Numbers
On 'voting' - I suppose that most Brits who do live here don't vote. Certainly the majority of us are over 18. The average age of the Brits in Spain - according to some quite old study I had back in about 1995 - was/is 57 which contrasted with the Spanish average age of 37. What to vote for? The Brits wanted theatres and rest homes and libraries... the Spanish wanted sports facilities, amusement parks and discos.
As far as how many vote, base figures from 1999 showed, as I remember, that only 0.5% of the foreigners who could vote in (the hopefully typical town of) Mijas bothered to do so (which, in a broader sense, was why the Parties don't take any notice of us). Here in my town, we had a massive 14% in the last local election (374 Brits voted out of 2585 Brits on the padrón).
Somebody talks about 'In England the foreigners do this-or-that which...'. Doesn't mean that Spain should be the same (it isn't, anyway).
So, how many are we..? The Spanish, usually so exact with their numbers, clearly don't know. In fact, from this summer, it will become law to register on the padrón if you live with Spain as a primary residence, so figures will eventually be tightened up.
As far as how many vote, base figures from 1999 showed, as I remember, that only 0.5% of the foreigners who could vote in (the hopefully typical town of) Mijas bothered to do so (which, in a broader sense, was why the Parties don't take any notice of us). Here in my town, we had a massive 14% in the last local election (374 Brits voted out of 2585 Brits on the padrón).
Somebody talks about 'In England the foreigners do this-or-that which...'. Doesn't mean that Spain should be the same (it isn't, anyway).
So, how many are we..? The Spanish, usually so exact with their numbers, clearly don't know. In fact, from this summer, it will become law to register on the padrón if you live with Spain as a primary residence, so figures will eventually be tightened up.
We should encourage any Brit we know who is not on the Padron to do so.
We should also do the same re-registering to vote, as the Ayuntamiento's will take note IMO
I can tell you that in our village the PSOE just scrapped in after a recount & the immigrant vote (Brit/Bulgario/Rumanio) swung it for them, this was not lost on the PP who had ruled the roost for a long time.
Yes IMO we do have a duty to register & vote
Feb 14th 2010, 5:17 pm
#20
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
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Re: Numbers
For example if you wish to buy property you need an NIE. In no way does it prove "you're here".
The padron is for people who have their principal residence in Spain. That excludes people who just own holiday property in Spain, even though many town halls encourage people to sign on the padron even though they are not legally entitled to do so.
A Spaniard who has a second property in a holiday area is not allowed to sign on the padron in that locality.
There are many towns where 80% of the property is owned by Spaniards as second homes and they really need the other 20% to sign on to get the money from central government.
Feb 14th 2010, 5:27 pm
#21
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Re: Numbers
So if you have the NIE, then you apply for residencia, that shows your principal residence is here. And the padrón tells them where you are and where to give the money.
I was asked for certain documents and proofs of residence that some people wouldn't be able to provide - people whose name doesn't appear on the lease, for example. If they want to ensure people reguster on the padrón, surely they need to make it easier to fulfill the criteria to do so. Or knock a few civil servants heads together.
Feb 14th 2010, 5:46 pm
#22
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Location: Granada Costa
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Re: Numbers
You mention "applying for residencia" - at present that means signing on the register of foreigners after 90 consecutive days in Spain.
That in no way shows that your principal residence is in Spain.
The whole residency thing is a real mess - about the only way you can prove true residency in Spain is if you pay your taxes in Spain and even then, to prove that point, you may need to get a certificate of tax residency from the tax office.
If you really want to find out if you are resident in Spain then try selling your house at a profit and see what the Notary requires to prove residency to avoid the CGT retention - almost certainly they will not accept anything less than a bunch of completed tax declarations, or more recently, a certificate of tax residency.
The same will apply if you want to claim the exemptions and allowances against Inheritance Tax that residents are entitled to.
A padron certificate or a copy of your "residencia" A4 sheet will likely get disregarded.
Feb 14th 2010, 6:40 pm
#23
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Re: Numbers
Not necessarily.
You mention "applying for residencia" - at present that means signing on the register of foreigners after 90 consecutive days in Spain.
That in no way shows that your principal residence is in Spain.
The whole residency thing is a real mess - about the only way you can prove true residency in Spain is if you pay your taxes in Spain and even then, to prove that point, you may need to get a certificate of tax residency from the tax office.
If you really want to find out if you are resident in Spain then try selling your house at a profit and see what the Notary requires to prove residency to avoid the CGT retention - almost certainly they will not accept anything less than a bunch of completed tax declarations, or more recently, a certificate of tax residency.
The same will apply if you want to claim the exemptions and allowances against Inheritance Tax that residents are entitled to.
A padron certificate or a copy of your "residencia" A4 sheet will likely get disregarded.
You mention "applying for residencia" - at present that means signing on the register of foreigners after 90 consecutive days in Spain.
That in no way shows that your principal residence is in Spain.
The whole residency thing is a real mess - about the only way you can prove true residency in Spain is if you pay your taxes in Spain and even then, to prove that point, you may need to get a certificate of tax residency from the tax office.
If you really want to find out if you are resident in Spain then try selling your house at a profit and see what the Notary requires to prove residency to avoid the CGT retention - almost certainly they will not accept anything less than a bunch of completed tax declarations, or more recently, a certificate of tax residency.
The same will apply if you want to claim the exemptions and allowances against Inheritance Tax that residents are entitled to.
A padron certificate or a copy of your "residencia" A4 sheet will likely get disregarded.
Feb 14th 2010, 6:52 pm
#24
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Re: Numbers
Like you say it`s a mess, but if you want to get kids in school or join the health system your padron and residencia will def be needed, certainly not disregarded and taken as proof of your sole residency in Spain, but no taxation paperwork is needed to prove residency in this area .
Feb 14th 2010, 7:17 pm
#25
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Feb 14th 2010, 9:03 pm
#26
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Granada Costa
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Re: Numbers
Like you say it`s a mess, but if you want to get kids in school or join the health system your padron and residencia will def be needed, certainly not disregarded and taken as proof of your sole residency in Spain, but no taxation paperwork is needed to prove residency in this area .
You need one piece of paper for one thing and another for something else with absolutely no common sense involved!
But this is Spain - they do things differently here!
Feb 14th 2010, 10:11 pm
#27
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Re: Numbers
Yes but with their antiquated system of financing local authorities, the number of people registered on the padron dictates the amount of money they get for local services, police, doctors, schools etc.
And those electric and IBI accounts which people pay by cash so the tax man won't find out how long they spend here.
Its really easy for the tax-man in Spain, who also has direct computer links with the Customs and Excise tax offices in UK.
And those electric and IBI accounts which people pay by cash so the tax man won't find out how long they spend here.
Its really easy for the tax-man in Spain, who also has direct computer links with the Customs and Excise tax offices in UK.
I cannot see how hacienda has a direct link to the UK tax offices because of the Data Protection Act. Even some UK Gov Depts cannot automatically share information about an individual. They would collaborate in an investigation that's all. But they would have to present a good case for handing out personal information about someone.
BTW what about all the thousands that registered and returned to the UK...would they have "depadronised"!!
Last edited by jackytoo; Feb 14th 2010 at 10:15 pm.
Feb 14th 2010, 10:21 pm
#28
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Re: Numbers
I cannot see how hacienda has a direct link to the UK tax offices because of the Data Protection Act. Even some UK Gov Depts cannot automatically share information about an individual. They would collaborate in an investigation that's all. But they would have to present a good case for handing out personal information about someone.
On the other hand the Customs part of the partnership have stronger powers than the Police when it comes to search and investigation and they too of course have officers working on the continent
Feb 15th 2010, 6:11 am
#29
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Re: Numbers
HM Customs & Excise have merged with the Inland Revenue to form HMRC. The HMRC actually have UK officers working in Spain under exchange schemes. How much information changes hands, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess, but I'm not sure if there are actual direct links between their systems. Its extremely difficult for instance for HMRC to get information from DVLA, so you can see how much of a problem it would be.
On the other hand the Customs part of the partnership have stronger powers than the Police when it comes to search and investigation and they too of course have officers working on the continent
On the other hand the Customs part of the partnership have stronger powers than the Police when it comes to search and investigation and they too of course have officers working on the continent
Feb 15th 2010, 7:31 am
#30
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Re: Numbers
Under UK law the Revenue service cannot exchange info with the UK police but as repeated here, they have a very close working relationship with the Revenue Service of Spain. So don't get any fanciful ideas about they won't be able to exchange info about anyone because of Data Protection or the like. If they wanna know, they will know. I have suggested for a long time that everyone should get their tax declaration 'regularised' or expect a nasty surprise sometime.
Yes it's very STRICTLY CONTROLLED in general in the UK. As I mentioned, their working relationship in Spain is with exchange staff a lot of the time, so information used here is clearly going to be based on information from the UK
