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Numbers
The Spanish INE (statistics agency) says there are some 356,000 Britons living in Spain (i.e. on the padrón). Giles Tremlett, the Guardian journalist in Madrid, put the figure (in 2007) at 761,000 and the Foreign Office is said to claim one million Brits living in Spain.
I tend to go with 750,000 as a round number - and depending, of course, on what you mean by 'living here'. But, lets put this in context, based on the official numbers. There are 188,000 Spaniards living in the city of AlmerÃa, so, even using the INE figures, we are, when all squeezed into the same room, twice the size of that city. ...and, if you can believe this, again from the INE, there are 2,354,000 people from the EU living in Spain - the equivalent of shoving together the three cities of AlmerÃa, Málaga and... Barcelona! Still think we shouldn't vote? |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Lenox
(Post 8340677)
The Spanish INE (statistics agency) says there are some 356,000 Britons living in Spain (i.e. on the padrón). Giles Tremlett, the Guardian journalist in Madrid, put the figure (in 2007) at 761,000 and the Foreign Office is said to claim one million Brits living in Spain.
I tend to go with 750,000 as a round number - and depending, of course, on what you mean by 'living here'. But, lets put this in context, based on the official numbers. There are 188,000 Spaniards living in the city of AlmerÃa, so, even using the INE figures, we are, when all squeezed into the same room, twice the size of that city. ...and, if you can believe this, again from the INE, there are 2,354,000 people from the EU living in Spain - the equivalent of shoving together the three cities of AlmerÃa, Málaga and... Barcelona! Still think we shouldn't vote? |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Lenox
(Post 8340677)
The Spanish INE (statistics agency) says there are some 356,000 Britons living in Spain (i.e. on the padrón). Giles Tremlett, the Guardian journalist in Madrid, put the figure (in 2007) at 761,000 and the Foreign Office is said to claim one million Brits living in Spain.
I tend to go with 750,000 as a round number - and depending, of course, on what you mean by 'living here'. But, lets put this in context, based on the official numbers. There are 188,000 Spaniards living in the city of AlmerÃa, so, even using the INE figures, we are, when all squeezed into the same room, twice the size of that city. ...and, if you can believe this, again from the INE, there are 2,354,000 people from the EU living in Spain - the equivalent of shoving together the three cities of AlmerÃa, Málaga and... Barcelona! Still think we shouldn't vote? Bl**dy illegal immigrants |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8340958)
Which shows that over half of Brits living in Spain are living ILLEGALLY i.e. they are not registered on the padron.
Bl**dy illegal immigrants I know people who have apartments here which they use for a few weeks a year but they are registered on the Padron so that they get a discount on local taxes. I don't suspect they are isolated cases either so what weight can we give to the figures, any figures! "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by johncar61
(Post 8340974)
Sorry to disagree, but it does not show anything, other than someone THINKS there are more. I think it too but it does not prove I am right.
I know people who have apartments here which they use for a few weeks a year but they are registered on the Padron so that they get a discount on local taxes. I don't suspect they are isolated cases either so what weight can we give to the figures, any figures! "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" I think it is important to highlight this especially considering the previous thread which complained about illegal immigrants in the UK. If the British foreign office believes there to be 1 million Brits resident in Spain, but only 365,000 are registered with the Spanish authorities. Then what on earth are these 635,000 Brits who are illegally living in Spain doing!? Maybe they have something to do with all that black money flying about? :blink: |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8341033)
Well,what the people you know are doing is illegal too.
I think it is important to highlight this especially considering the previous thread which complained about illegal immigrants in the UK. If the British foreign office believes there to be 1 million Brits resident in Spain, but only 365,000 are registered with the Spanish authorities. Then what on earth are these 635,000 Brits who are illegally living in Spain doing!? Maybe they have something to do with all that black money flying about? :blink: Re the FO guess at how any people are here. Maybe the guess is wrong. Maybe it just a guess ! I guessed the numbers for the lottery last week but I was wrong again too, do you think the FO would help me next week with my guessing .. ....... |
Re: Numbers
I wonder how many of those could be bothered to vote tho!
Jo x |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by jojojojojojojojojojojojo
(Post 8341114)
I wonder how many of those could be bothered to vote tho!
Jo x Its just a rhetorical question. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by johncar61
(Post 8341127)
I wonder what the mathematical formula is for the number who vote compared with the number who don't vote but who complain about what the elected body does or does not do ?
Its just a rhetorical question. If a party ever came along who I could believe in I might make the effort - in the UK tho, not allowed to vote here! Jo xxx |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8340958)
Which shows that over half of Brits living in Spain are living ILLEGALLY i.e. they are not registered on the padron.
Does Lenox's original statistic really refer to the padrón or to the national list of foreigners? |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8340958)
Which shows that over half of Brits living in Spain are living ILLEGALLY i.e. they are not registered on the padron.
Bl**dy illegal immigrants |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by cricketman
(Post 8340958)
Bl**dy illegal immigrants
|
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Lenox
(Post 8340677)
The Spanish INE (statistics agency) says there are some 356,000 Britons living in Spain (i.e. on the padrón). Giles Tremlett, the Guardian journalist in Madrid, put the figure (in 2007) at 761,000 and the Foreign Office is said to claim one million Brits living in Spain.
I tend to go with 750,000 as a round number - and depending, of course, on what you mean by 'living here'. But, lets put this in context, based on the official numbers. There are 188,000 Spaniards living in the city of AlmerÃa, so, even using the INE figures, we are, when all squeezed into the same room, twice the size of that city. ...and, if you can believe this, again from the INE, there are 2,354,000 people from the EU living in Spain - the equivalent of shoving together the three cities of AlmerÃa, Málaga and... Barcelona! Still think we shouldn't vote? On a similar note, I recall an item on the local TV news ('twas the BBC, so it must be true :p that when you just look at the number of french nationals living there, London is the 7th most populated french city. How about if the french elected the Mayor of London? In practice, I probably know a few hundred people in the UK. From all of them I know of 2 british families who live full time in Spain - maybe 6 people out of around 300-400. That's about 0.5%. If my sample was representative that would be around 300,000 - 400,000 brits living in Spain. |
Re: Numbers
On 'voting' - I suppose that most Brits who do live here don't vote. Certainly the majority of us are over 18. The average age of the Brits in Spain - according to some quite old study I had back in about 1995 - was/is 57 which contrasted with the Spanish average age of 37. What to vote for? The Brits wanted theatres and rest homes and libraries... the Spanish wanted sports facilities, amusement parks and discos.
As far as how many vote, base figures from 1999 showed, as I remember, that only 0.5% of the foreigners who could vote in (the hopefully typical town of) Mijas bothered to do so (which, in a broader sense, was why the Parties don't take any notice of us). Here in my town, we had a massive 14% in the last local election (374 Brits voted out of 2585 Brits on the padrón). Somebody talks about 'In England the foreigners do this-or-that which...'. Doesn't mean that Spain should be the same (it isn't, anyway). So, how many are we..? The Spanish, usually so exact with their numbers, clearly don't know. In fact, from this summer, it will become law to register on the padrón if you live with Spain as a primary residence, so figures will eventually be tightened up. |
Re: Numbers
Ok, so if you register for an NIE then they know you're here. Surely the padrón only tells them where exactly you are?
Am I missing something here? |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Lenox
(Post 8341275)
What to vote for? The Brits wanted theatres and rest homes and libraries... the Spanish wanted sports facilities, amusement parks and discos.
Heck, dont let the Brits vote LOL jo xxx |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by rachelk
(Post 8341301)
Ok, so if you register for an NIE then they know you're here. Surely the padrón only tells them where exactly you are?
Am I missing something here? They don't tie up NIE and padron nor tax office info. etc. An addition. I don't if everyone realises that with your NIE the tax office can find every bank account you might have in Spain, plus all your major purchases etc. And those electric and IBI accounts which people pay by cash so the tax man won't find out how long they spend here. Its really easy for the tax-man in Spain, who also has direct computer links with the Customs and Excise tax offices in UK. |
Re: Numbers
Exactly. They know you're here, they just don't know who to give the money to.
Which makes it even stranger than some places can be so picky when you try to register - don't they want the money? |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Lenox
(Post 8341275)
On 'voting' - I suppose that most Brits who do live here don't vote. Certainly the majority of us are over 18. The average age of the Brits in Spain - according to some quite old study I had back in about 1995 - was/is 57 which contrasted with the Spanish average age of 37. What to vote for? The Brits wanted theatres and rest homes and libraries... the Spanish wanted sports facilities, amusement parks and discos.
As far as how many vote, base figures from 1999 showed, as I remember, that only 0.5% of the foreigners who could vote in (the hopefully typical town of) Mijas bothered to do so (which, in a broader sense, was why the Parties don't take any notice of us). Here in my town, we had a massive 14% in the last local election (374 Brits voted out of 2585 Brits on the padrón). Somebody talks about 'In England the foreigners do this-or-that which...'. Doesn't mean that Spain should be the same (it isn't, anyway). So, how many are we..? The Spanish, usually so exact with their numbers, clearly don't know. In fact, from this summer, it will become law to register on the padrón if you live with Spain as a primary residence, so figures will eventually be tightened up. We should encourage any Brit we know who is not on the Padron to do so. We should also do the same re-registering to vote, as the Ayuntamiento's will take note IMO I can tell you that in our village the PSOE just scrapped in after a recount & the immigrant vote (Brit/Bulgario/Rumanio) swung it for them, this was not lost on the PP who had ruled the roost for a long time. Yes IMO we do have a duty to register & vote |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by rachelk
(Post 8341301)
Ok, so if you register for an NIE then they know you're here. Surely the padrón only tells them where exactly you are?
For example if you wish to buy property you need an NIE. In no way does it prove "you're here". The padron is for people who have their principal residence in Spain. That excludes people who just own holiday property in Spain, even though many town halls encourage people to sign on the padron even though they are not legally entitled to do so. A Spaniard who has a second property in a holiday area is not allowed to sign on the padron in that locality. There are many towns where 80% of the property is owned by Spaniards as second homes and they really need the other 20% to sign on to get the money from central government. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Fred James
(Post 8341435)
You can register for an NIE even if you never set foot in Spain.
For example if you wish to buy property you need an NIE. In no way does it prove "you're here".. So if you have the NIE, then you apply for residencia, that shows your principal residence is here. And the padrón tells them where you are and where to give the money. I was asked for certain documents and proofs of residence that some people wouldn't be able to provide - people whose name doesn't appear on the lease, for example. If they want to ensure people reguster on the padrón, surely they need to make it easier to fulfill the criteria to do so. Or knock a few civil servants heads together. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by rachelk
(Post 8341459)
So if you have the NIE, then you apply for residencia, that shows your principal residence is here.
You mention "applying for residencia" - at present that means signing on the register of foreigners after 90 consecutive days in Spain. That in no way shows that your principal residence is in Spain. The whole residency thing is a real mess - about the only way you can prove true residency in Spain is if you pay your taxes in Spain and even then, to prove that point, you may need to get a certificate of tax residency from the tax office. If you really want to find out if you are resident in Spain then try selling your house at a profit and see what the Notary requires to prove residency to avoid the CGT retention - almost certainly they will not accept anything less than a bunch of completed tax declarations, or more recently, a certificate of tax residency. The same will apply if you want to claim the exemptions and allowances against Inheritance Tax that residents are entitled to. A padron certificate or a copy of your "residencia" A4 sheet will likely get disregarded. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Fred James
(Post 8341498)
Not necessarily.
You mention "applying for residencia" - at present that means signing on the register of foreigners after 90 consecutive days in Spain. That in no way shows that your principal residence is in Spain. The whole residency thing is a real mess - about the only way you can prove true residency in Spain is if you pay your taxes in Spain and even then, to prove that point, you may need to get a certificate of tax residency from the tax office. If you really want to find out if you are resident in Spain then try selling your house at a profit and see what the Notary requires to prove residency to avoid the CGT retention - almost certainly they will not accept anything less than a bunch of completed tax declarations, or more recently, a certificate of tax residency. The same will apply if you want to claim the exemptions and allowances against Inheritance Tax that residents are entitled to. A padron certificate or a copy of your "residencia" A4 sheet will likely get disregarded. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by jdr
(Post 8341604)
Like you say it`s a mess, but if you want to get kids in school or join the health system your padron and residencia will def be needed, certainly not disregarded and taken as proof of your sole residency in Spain, but no taxation paperwork is needed to prove residency in this area . ;)
|
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by rachelk
(Post 8341639)
I didn't need the padrón to register with the health service. I didn't even apply for the padrón until much later.
It was added for a purpose. |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by jdr
(Post 8341604)
Like you say it`s a mess, but if you want to get kids in school or join the health system your padron and residencia will def be needed, certainly not disregarded and taken as proof of your sole residency in Spain, but no taxation paperwork is needed to prove residency in this area . ;)
You need one piece of paper for one thing and another for something else with absolutely no common sense involved! But this is Spain - they do things differently here! |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by johncar61
(Post 8341323)
Yes but with their antiquated system of financing local authorities, the number of people registered on the padron dictates the amount of money they get for local services, police, doctors, schools etc.
And those electric and IBI accounts which people pay by cash so the tax man won't find out how long they spend here. Its really easy for the tax-man in Spain, who also has direct computer links with the Customs and Excise tax offices in UK. I cannot see how hacienda has a direct link to the UK tax offices because of the Data Protection Act. Even some UK Gov Depts cannot automatically share information about an individual. They would collaborate in an investigation that's all. But they would have to present a good case for handing out personal information about someone. BTW what about all the thousands that registered and returned to the UK...would they have "depadronised"!! |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by jackytoo
(Post 8342095)
I cannot see how hacienda has a direct link to the UK tax offices because of the Data Protection Act. Even some UK Gov Depts cannot automatically share information about an individual. They would collaborate in an investigation that's all. But they would have to present a good case for handing out personal information about someone.
On the other hand the Customs part of the partnership have stronger powers than the Police when it comes to search and investigation and they too of course have officers working on the continent :) |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by Mitzyboy
(Post 8342123)
HM Customs & Excise have merged with the Inland Revenue to form HMRC. The HMRC actually have UK officers working in Spain under exchange schemes. How much information changes hands, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess, but I'm not sure if there are actual direct links between their systems. Its extremely difficult for instance for HMRC to get information from DVLA, so you can see how much of a problem it would be.
On the other hand the Customs part of the partnership have stronger powers than the Police when it comes to search and investigation and they too of course have officers working on the continent :) |
Re: Numbers
Originally Posted by johncar61
(Post 8342963)
Under UK law the Revenue service cannot exchange info with the UK police but as repeated here, they have a very close working relationship with the Revenue Service of Spain. So don't get any fanciful ideas about they won't be able to exchange info about anyone because of Data Protection or the like. If they wanna know, they will know. I have suggested for a long time that everyone should get their tax declaration 'regularised' or expect a nasty surprise sometime.
Yes it's very STRICTLY CONTROLLED in general in the UK. As I mentioned, their working relationship in Spain is with exchange staff a lot of the time, so information used here is clearly going to be based on information from the UK |
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