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Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Old Aug 5th 2021, 2:40 pm
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Default Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Looking for some straight forward info, or a link that explains things in easy Spanish!

Friend on an Irish passport (also has Brit/French citizenship), married to a Canadian. They are living in Galicia, been there about 2 months, and have just got their Padrons today. So now they want to apply for Residency, to stay permanently, but he is wondering if the wife (as a non-EU citizen) will have any problems staying permanently should they split up at any point in the future.
Not that they are planning to split, but you never know! If they were to divorce, where would she stand regards staying in Spain on her own, rather than as "family of an EU citizen"?

Thanks in advance!
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Old Aug 5th 2021, 4:13 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

EC Directive 2004/38

Article 13

Retention of the right of residence by family members in the event of divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of registered partnership

1. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of the Union citizen's marriage or termination of his/her registered partnership, as referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not affect the right of residence of his/her family members who are nationals of a Member State.

Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the persons concerned must meet the conditions laid down in points (a), (b), (c) or (d) of Article 7(1).

2. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not entail loss of the right of residence of a Union citizen's family members who are not nationals of a Member State where:

(a)

prior to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership has lasted at least three years, including one year in the host Member State; or

(b)

by agreement between the spouses or the partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has custody of the Union citizen's children; or

(c)

this is warranted by particularly difficult circumstances, such as having been a victim of domestic violence while the marriage or registered partnership was subsisting; or

(d)

by agreement between the spouses or partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has the right of access to a minor child, provided that the court has ruled that such access must be in the host Member State, and for as long as is required.

Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the right of residence of the persons concerned shall remain subject to the requirement that they are able to show that they are workers or self-employed persons or that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State, or that they are members of the family, already constituted in the host Member State, of a person satisfying these requirements. "Sufficient resources" shall be as defined in Article 8(4).

Such family members shall retain their right of residence exclusively on personal basis.

Last edited by Bomber Harris; Aug 5th 2021 at 4:16 pm.
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Old Aug 5th 2021, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Bomber Harris
EC Directive 2004/38

Article 13

Retention of the right of residence by family members in the event of divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of registered partnership

1. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of the Union citizen's marriage or termination of his/her registered partnership, as referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not affect the right of residence of his/her family members who are nationals of a Member State.

Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the persons concerned must meet the conditions laid down in points (a), (b), (c) or (d) of Article 7(1).

2. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not entail loss of the right of residence of a Union citizen's family members who are not nationals of a Member State where:

(a)

prior to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership has lasted at least three years, including one year in the host Member State; or

(b)

by agreement between the spouses or the partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has custody of the Union citizen's children; or

(c)

this is warranted by particularly difficult circumstances, such as having been a victim of domestic violence while the marriage or registered partnership was subsisting; or

(d)

by agreement between the spouses or partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has the right of access to a minor child, provided that the court has ruled that such access must be in the host Member State, and for as long as is required.

Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the right of residence of the persons concerned shall remain subject to the requirement that they are able to show that they are workers or self-employed persons or that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State, or that they are members of the family, already constituted in the host Member State, of a person satisfying these requirements. "Sufficient resources" shall be as defined in Article 8(4).

Such family members shall retain their right of residence exclusively on personal basis.
Thats brilliant, thanks so much!

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Old Aug 10th 2021, 10:41 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

OK, so this has now got very complicated very fast!
Any help gratefully received as I'm searching the internet but some of it is a bit confusing.

Him - Irish citizen, married to her - Canadian citizen. Moved to Galicia, got their Padrons about 2 weeks ago. Things now look like going very pear-shaped very fast. The previous reply seems to talk about permanent residency and divorce after that has been achieved. However, we aren't now sure that it will get that far.
Am I right in thinking that they have to apply for residency and at first they get temporary residency, and PR is only granted after five years?
And am I also correct that for those five years, as she is a non EU citizen, they need to stay together as a couple, or else her residency is cancelled?
I may be way off track, but thats the conclusion I've come to after pouring over several websites. Seems like she gets temp residency as an EU family member?
If they split up before she gets her PR can she stay in Spain? Can she work? Or is it back to Canada with her tail between her legs?

Issue 2 is bank accounts. He has a large sum of money with which they opened a joint account. Cash cards haven't arrived in the mail yet. He needs to stop her emptying the account. How do joint accounts work in Spain? Would he be able to open a single account for himself and transfer the money? Or even move it back to Barclays? I've told him to get someone who speaks Spanish better than he does and get down the bank asap, but if anyone has any ideas, please chip in!

(and I know it would be easier if he was asking himself but he's not good at this stuff! He is reading the replies though )

Last edited by Pollyana; Aug 10th 2021 at 10:44 am.
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Old Aug 10th 2021, 11:35 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Hm........ Seems like they are splitting up now?

If I were him, I would hot foot down to the bank and open another account in his name and transfer most of the funds. There may be a limit on how much he could transfer/day. At my bank that is 10,000 euros. Even without cash cards he can arrange bank transfer(s) in the bank or online.

There is a much lower limit on how much he / she could withdraw from ATM using a cash card. The limit depends on which bank.
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Old Aug 10th 2021, 11:42 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Blimey. Lots can change in just 5 days! 5 days ago "no plans for separating". Now he fears she'll run with the money.

Doesn't matter what he does with the money. It's now subject to divorce settlement. They both need legal advice. NOW.
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Old Aug 10th 2021, 6:32 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Pollyana
Am I right in thinking that they have to apply for residency and at first they get temporary residency, and PR is only granted after five years?

Yes.

And am I also correct that for those five years, as she is a non EU citizen, they need to stay together as a couple, or else her residency is cancelled?

No. Her right of residency remains whether she has temporary or permanent residency. The only difference being with temporary residency she will still need to meet the conditions that apply to anyone with temporary residency (e.g. sufficient resources), those conditions no longer apply to people who have permanent residency.

I may be way off track, but thats the conclusion I've come to after pouring over several websites. Seems like she gets temp residency as an EU family member?

She does.

If they split up before she gets her PR can she stay in Spain? Can she work? Or is it back to Canada with her tail between her legs?

I refer you to my first reply on your post where I quoted the relevant EU legislation. All the answers you seek are contained in that legislation, which is EU Directive 2004/38/EC. Member states may only diverge from that Directive if such divergence is more favourable to the citizen (Article 37).
Link to the EU Directive
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...L0038-20110616
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Old Aug 10th 2021, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Thanks so much guys. Yes a lot can happen in a few days, and I think he's a bit stunned by it all (me maybe less so....)
I'll pass all that on to him today, especially the residency stuff. We were worrying that she would be dependent on him while on the temp visa, but if she can stand on her own two feet then maybe they can try and patch it up till she gets residency and take it from there. Soft hearted git doesn't want to abandon her and have her packed off back to Canada.
Really appreciate the info
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Old Aug 10th 2021, 7:12 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Bomber Harris
Thanks! I did go through the first reply, we just weren't sure if "residency" meant the PR after 5 years or the time before that as well.
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Old Aug 11th 2021, 9:37 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Poor guy. He'll be joining the pre-nups and greencards forum as an expert advisor after this. I would follow the advice of clearing the account ASAP, change all passwords and then get some legal advice. He should also switch off the password saving option on his PC if she has access to it.

If he's reading this: Start by changing your Google password and Apple if you have it. They store them all and from an iPhone you can see the passwords in clear text which is totally insane.
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Old Aug 13th 2021, 9:57 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by SanNico
Poor guy. He'll be joining the pre-nups and greencards forum as an expert advisor after this. I would follow the advice of clearing the account ASAP, change all passwords and then get some legal advice. He should also switch off the password saving option on his PC if she has access to it.

If he's reading this: Start by changing your Google password and Apple if you have it. They store them all and from an iPhone you can see the passwords in clear text which is totally insane.
The laptop is hers and she has decamped with it. He says his account was fingerprint protected and he's changed various passwords anyway, so heres hoping
Bank were excellent apparently, opened him a solo account and shifted the money from the joint account into it (although she had already managed to take a fair chunk out). He seems to have a noble idea of trying to help her to stay in Spain by getting her residency but hopefully he will see sense before things get that far. At the moment she's on the 90 day tourist thingy.

Thank you to everyone for their help, from both him and me. I'd love to be over there helping him to sort it out personally but HMP Australia doesn't allow its citizens to leave these days (unless they are rich and/or famous). So BE to the rescue once again! And I'm sure we will be back with more questions before too long
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Old Aug 13th 2021, 11:56 am
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Pollyana
He seems to have a noble idea of trying to help her to stay in Spain by getting her residency but hopefully he will see sense before things get that far. At the moment she's on the 90 day tourist thingy.
He could fall foul of Article 35 if he does that with the circumstances you have described re the relationship which could jeopardise his own residency (and possibly his liberty as well).

Abuse of rights

Member States may adopt the necessary measures to refuse, terminate or withdraw any right conferred by this Directive in the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience. Any such measure shall be proportionate and subject to the procedural safeguards provided for in Articles 30 and 31.
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Old Aug 13th 2021, 4:43 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Bomber Harris
He could fall foul of Article 35 if he does that with the circumstances you have described re the relationship which could jeopardise his own residency (and possibly his liberty as well).

Abuse of rights

Member States may adopt the necessary measures to refuse, terminate or withdraw any right conferred by this Directive in the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience. Any such measure shall be proportionate and subject to the procedural safeguards provided for in Articles 30 and 31.
TBH I have been trying to tell him this. I think he should cut her off asap and she takes her own chances (which would almost certainly mean leaving Europe) but he has this sense of honour which makes him feel obligated to her.
Now I have an official link I might be able to get through to him! Thank you so much
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Old Aug 16th 2021, 12:03 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Ah the boy is now seeing sense....!
He has told her that as she declared the marriage to be over, she needs to get her butt out of his house. He wants to get his residency secured before telling her he won't support her to get her own.
But now he's concerned that she doesn't seem to worried, almost as if she's sure of her residency whatever happens. She navigated her way through all the UK visa regs so she's not a complete novice at this kind of thing. So I'm looking at what possible ways there are that she could stay in Spain if he declares he won't support her residency as the marriage is effectively over.
Tourism - 90 day limit?
Working visas? On an initial look she needs a job, and a skill in s shortage area?
EU family member - if she finds some other mug, could get her residency on a de facto/common law basis but would that work if she is not yet divorced?
She has no other EU family members

Do the authorities actively look to deport overstaying mooses Canadian tourists?

My head hurts!!

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Old Aug 16th 2021, 12:53 pm
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Default Re: Non-EU, non Brit, living in Spain permanently

Originally Posted by Pollyana
Ah the boy is now seeing sense....!
He has told her that as she declared the marriage to be over, she needs to get her butt out of his house. He wants to get his residency secured before telling her he won't support her to get her own.
But now he's concerned that she doesn't seem to worried, almost as if she's sure of her residency whatever happens. She navigated her way through all the UK visa regs so she's not a complete novice at this kind of thing. So I'm looking at what possible ways there are that she could stay in Spain if he declares he won't support her residency as the marriage is effectively over.
Tourism - 90 day limit?
Working visas? On an initial look she needs a job, and a skill in s shortage area?
EU family member - if she finds some other mug, could get her residency on a de facto/common law basis but would that work if she is not yet divorced?
She has no other EU family members

Do the authorities actively look to deport overstaying mooses Canadian tourists?

My head hurts!!
If they're no longer a couple, does it really matter to your friend if she does/doesn't find a way to stay in Spain?
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