New pension age for women, is it fair?
#121
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
<<SNIP>>
As I said, that's reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator.
Maybe we should move away from occupational pension schemes altogether, put an extra 5 or 6% on NI contributions and pay a state pension based on a percentage of final salary (which I believe Spain does). That way we could perhaps ensure that those who have spent a lifetime on benefit (except for those who have a genuine disability) don't end up getting the same or more than those who have worked hard all their lives. That's what I believe is unaffordable and it is costing the taxpayer a fortune to keep all these people in idleness. Imagine being a not very well paid clerical worker in the Department of Work & Pensions or a Housing Benefit Department and processing claims for people to receive far more than you take home in a month - how infuriating must that be?
As I said, that's reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator.
Maybe we should move away from occupational pension schemes altogether, put an extra 5 or 6% on NI contributions and pay a state pension based on a percentage of final salary (which I believe Spain does). That way we could perhaps ensure that those who have spent a lifetime on benefit (except for those who have a genuine disability) don't end up getting the same or more than those who have worked hard all their lives. That's what I believe is unaffordable and it is costing the taxpayer a fortune to keep all these people in idleness. Imagine being a not very well paid clerical worker in the Department of Work & Pensions or a Housing Benefit Department and processing claims for people to receive far more than you take home in a month - how infuriating must that be?
Take a young mother with 3 kids by different fathers living on benefits who can afford to go out clubbing, have 40in TV with surround sound, American fridge. She is getting more in benefits than the average HB clerical worker before taxes and trying to pay a mortgage. But the latter has got a gold plated pension, the income from which will count against when reaching retirement and needing support from the benefit system.
All individuals have a worth - just some more than others.
#122
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
Firefighters Pensions
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
#123
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
#124
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Joined: Dec 2009
Location: Aracena area Huelva Spain
Posts: 1,631
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
The following is extracted from the printed version of the Sunday Times of 3 July 2011, which as many know is subscription access online so I can’t post a link.
The Private Sector Worker
What he wants in retirement £25,000
What is he likely to get £12,300
The High Earner
What he wants in retirement £50,000
What is he likely to get £44,330
The Businessman (small business)
What he wants in retirement £30,000
What he is likely to get = £25,100
The Public Sector Worker (teacher)
What she wants in retirement £20,000
What she is likely to get £25,400 at 60, £38,500 at 66
Obviously the sums can be changed by increasing contributions, but when in one instance that is by £1,000 per month, it shows how all people are equal, some more than others
The Private Sector Worker
What he wants in retirement £25,000
What is he likely to get £12,300
The High Earner
What he wants in retirement £50,000
What is he likely to get £44,330
The Businessman (small business)
What he wants in retirement £30,000
What he is likely to get = £25,100
The Public Sector Worker (teacher)
What she wants in retirement £20,000
What she is likely to get £25,400 at 60, £38,500 at 66
Obviously the sums can be changed by increasing contributions, but when in one instance that is by £1,000 per month, it shows how all people are equal, some more than others
This may be slightly skewed because in the public sector there are tiers but those have been averaged in this study. The private sector is still quoted in 2 tiers.
A policeman I know would expect at todays money to be getting around 15,00 for his contributory pension (He pays 11 percent of his wages into it) Presumably his superiors would get more having paid more. And those who start today pay in slightly less for 5 years longer. (35 years) A teacher would get less than a headteacher.
It's not interesting to give a rounded view though is it? All papers sensationalise. You can do anything with statistics.
#125
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
These are interesting figures.
This may be slightly skewed because in the public sector there are tiers but those have been averaged in this study. The private sector is still quoted in 2 tiers.
A policeman I know would expect at todays money to be getting around 15,00 for his contributory pension (He pays 11 percent of his wages into it) Presumably his superiors would get more having paid more. And those who start today pay in slightly less for 5 years longer. (35 years) A teacher would get less than a headteacher.
It's not interesting to give a rounded view though is it? All papers sensationalise. You can do anything with statistics.
This may be slightly skewed because in the public sector there are tiers but those have been averaged in this study. The private sector is still quoted in 2 tiers.
A policeman I know would expect at todays money to be getting around 15,00 for his contributory pension (He pays 11 percent of his wages into it) Presumably his superiors would get more having paid more. And those who start today pay in slightly less for 5 years longer. (35 years) A teacher would get less than a headteacher.
It's not interesting to give a rounded view though is it? All papers sensationalise. You can do anything with statistics.
yes you can do anything with statistics - the art is getting people to believe what they think they say
no disrespect intended but......many teachers are "over the hill" by age 60. But I have generally found that youngsters do learn better from their grand parents rather than their parents - who they see as a threat.
I know that I would not like to enter school at 5 and leave at 65 = 60 years in the same classroom.
The first 11 were bad enough.
But I would like to have the gold plated pension
#126
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Alhaurin el Grande
Posts: 582
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
A few years ago I ahd to do a first aid course, the instructor was a fireman on nightshift. He was up all day teaching us so how could he do his job in an evening. This is why people think we should have part time firemen on call, which is effectively all they are anyway.
#127
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
Second point yes term cake and eat it springs to mind
#128
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Joined: Apr 2010
Location: London (mainly)/Oliva
Posts: 2,137
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
Firefighters Pensions
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
What % of salary is required to achieve a similar pension in the private sector is the real question. I believe it is around to be 40% for fireman.
All I am saying is that that should be reflected in salaries in the public sector.ie they should paid be less not more than the private sector.
I also do not think point 5 of your post is correct as I thought the fire service and pensions would paid for through taxation and council tax.
I do not wish to get into debate about individual public sector jobs but the public sector cannot blindly go along thinking they should be immune from the effects of this recession.
A fireman I know retired after 40 years service several years ago and as he also in his spare time ran a bar (as well as a second hand car lot) we often debated public sector pensions and I established that to achieve his pension you would need c.£600k to buy an annuity that would match his pension.
You do not get that with a 11% contribution whether its a funded scheme or paid from the public purse.
#129
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
You as other posters have done is ignoring the true cost of providing public sector pensions.
What % of salary is required to achieve a similar pension in the private sector is the real question. I believe it is around to be 40% for fireman.
All I am saying is that that should be reflected in salaries in the public sector.ie they should paid be less not more than the private sector.
I also do not think point 5 of your post is correct as I thought the fire service and pensions would paid for through taxation and council tax.
I do not wish to get into debate about individual public sector jobs but the public sector cannot blindly go along thinking they should be immune from the effects of this recession.
A fireman I know retired after 40 years service several years ago and as he also in his spare time ran a bar (as well as a second hand car lot) we often debated public sector pensions and I established that to achieve his pension you would need c.£600k to buy an annuity that would match his pension.
You do not get that with a 11% contribution whether its a funded scheme or paid from the public purse.
What % of salary is required to achieve a similar pension in the private sector is the real question. I believe it is around to be 40% for fireman.
All I am saying is that that should be reflected in salaries in the public sector.ie they should paid be less not more than the private sector.
I also do not think point 5 of your post is correct as I thought the fire service and pensions would paid for through taxation and council tax.
I do not wish to get into debate about individual public sector jobs but the public sector cannot blindly go along thinking they should be immune from the effects of this recession.
A fireman I know retired after 40 years service several years ago and as he also in his spare time ran a bar (as well as a second hand car lot) we often debated public sector pensions and I established that to achieve his pension you would need c.£600k to buy an annuity that would match his pension.
You do not get that with a 11% contribution whether its a funded scheme or paid from the public purse.
#130
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
Firefighters Pensions
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
Lets get rid of a few misconceptions.
1 There is no pension scheme and no pension fund
2 All pensions currently being paid are paid for by contributions made by serving firefighters
3 Old scheme ended 5 years ago ie full pension after 30 years contributions of 11%
4 New scheme is 40 years at a lower rate of contributions
5 No taxpayers money is used to pay firefighters pensions
6 Firefighters pension scheme is a Royal Charter not a government scheme
7 in the 'good old days' firefighters life expectancy was only ten years after retirement and so there was about twice as much money going into the pot than being taken out. This excess was used by the local authority to prop up the rates
Let us stop the knocking of firefighters having second jobs. How many people who are not firefighters have an evening job in a bar or supermarket, they never get knocked for that.
Firefighters get paid for what they might need to do. They are always running in when everybody else is running out. They are expected, and do, any job no matter how dangerous, dirty, stomach churning or life threatening.
Most operational firefighters work a basic 42 hour week which is about 7 hours longer than most other employed people. They work shifts and so only appear to have lots of spare time.
Rant over. I am a retired firefighter.
PS the ambulance service and paramedics are the forgotten emergency service. They work long hours, are exceedingly poorly paid and do not have a very good pension scheme.
#132
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
Fair point I accept that there is a need for change but why do they have to try and demonise the public sector? The percentage they pay does make a difference I as a public sector worker was offered a pension whereby I pay 11% of my salary for an agreed pension. I didn't make the rules but am now very near to retiring and expect to get what I was promised. Fair enough make changes and people can then make the decision wether they want to come into the system. By the way to get the public sector jobs Fire Police Paramedic Forces it wasn't a big secret they advertised you applied and if you passed what they wanted you got the job. Thing is off course they are not the safest or easiest of jobs so not for everyone but are open to everyone to apply. There are other public sector workers who pay far less contributions than 11% and get equal pensions but they joined there job I joined mine and accept that but yes from a certain point on they should even things up. One final point dont see them talking about MP's pensions which is a fantastic scheme with rapidly accelerated accrual of pension, are they not part of the public sector?
however, you should not be including MP's as civil servants - more on a par with directors private pension , medical plans and expenses. Also like firemen second jobs are rife.
#134
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,588
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
All this highlights the differences within the public sector with different levels of gold plating dependent on which part you are in. They are still happy to accept the public contribution, to accept that if TUPE'd pension goes with them. All in all better off than in the private sector.
however, you should not be including MP's as civil servants - more on a par with directors private pension , medical plans and expenses. Also like firemen second jobs are rife.
however, you should not be including MP's as civil servants - more on a par with directors private pension , medical plans and expenses. Also like firemen second jobs are rife.
#135
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Joined: Apr 2010
Location: London (mainly)/Oliva
Posts: 2,137
Re: New pension age for women, is it fair?
This is precisely what has happened in the private sector,why should the public sector be any different?