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New electricity company in our area...

New electricity company in our area...

Old Nov 26th 2011, 7:04 pm
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Default New electricity company in our area...

The other day we had a couple at the door the with ID from Gas Natural Fenosa. It seemed like a concerted campaign in our village as we later saw several of them gathering in the square.

I'd never heard of the company before but, looking at the web, it seems they are quite a big energy company with links to Repsol and La Caixa.

They wanted to see our last electricity bill so that they could give us a quote for supply. Having heard tales from UK about doorstep energy salesmen I declined to give them any details but thought I would do my own search. Their main website is very heavy on corporate detail but light on information on domestic supply and prices so I wondered if anyone on here uses them for electricity supply, did you get a better deal with them and is there a retail website that I have missed somewhere?
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 8:53 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

http://www.gasnaturalfenosa.com/es/i...971/hogar.html

Does this help?

My gas comes from Fenosa; I didn't choose them, it's a rented flat and I just took over the contract. I didn't know they did electricity as well and have no idea how they compare with others.
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 9:57 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Yes, it does help. Thank you. A quick glance shows the kWh rate to be the same as my current supplier. Haven't found the service charges yet but it's doubtful they would make much difference to the overall price, well, enough to bother with the hassle of changing.

As you are already getting gas from them I see you could get a 12% discount on their rates if you took a dual fuel contract.
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Old Nov 26th 2011, 10:17 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

We switched (excuse the pun!) from Iberdrola to Fenosa for electricity as they are cheaper, had no problems at all. We don't have piped gas where we are (yet)
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 5:51 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by rafikiphoto
As you are already getting gas from them I see you could get a 12% discount on their rates if you took a dual fuel contract.
thanks, will have a look at that.
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 8:18 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

There has been a "free market" for electricity for at least two years in Spain.

However the government has controlled electricity prices in Spain for many years and they still do so. All companies are still obliged to supply electricity on the TUR tariff to all users with less than a 10KW contract which applies to 90% of all domestic users.

There are some offers if you change supplier but in almost all cases the saving only applies to the fixed monthly tariff which is a very small part of the total bill.

If you are one of the very small percentage of users with more than 10kw (and that means that you will have a three phase supply)then there are a variety of offers out there if you wish to change supplier.

This can be especially relevant if you use an "off peak" supply where you are billed at two different rates depending on the time of day that you use the supply.

Apart from that any savings offered by alternative suppliers are of very small value compared to the total yearly cost.
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 8:23 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Thanks Fred. Yes, the unit price was the same. There was an 'offer' price mentioned but this would be only introductory I'm sure. The govt. fixed price makes a mockery of the open market philosophy!
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 7:08 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by rafikiphoto
The govt. fixed price makes a mockery of the open market philosophy!
I'm not sure that's a fair comment.

The controlled TUR tariff is way lower than the electricity companies would like.

If you look at any of the free market tariffs they are much higher - I know - I'm on one!
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 9:27 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by Fred James
The controlled TUR tariff is way lower than the electricity companies would like.
If you look at any of the free market tariffs they are much higher - I know - I'm on one!
But isn't the reason the so called free market tariffs are so much higher is that they are subsidising the TUR tariff?
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 10:48 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Quite possibly but as 90% of all households are on the reduced tariff I doubt that any of them would want to see an increase just to be "free".
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Old Nov 27th 2011, 11:39 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

I'm sure you're right Fred but I return to my comment about the free market not really being free. It's a sham when 10% of consumers subsidise the other 90% (and the supply companies still make a profit albeit not as high as they would like).
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Old Nov 28th 2011, 12:18 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by Fred James
There has been a "free market" for electricity for at least two years in Spain.

However the government has controlled electricity prices in Spain for many years and they still do so. All companies are still obliged to supply electricity on the TUR tariff to all users with less than a 10KW contract which applies to 90% of all domestic users.

There are some offers if you change supplier but in almost all cases the saving only applies to the fixed monthly tariff which is a very small part of the total bill.

If you are one of the very small percentage of users with more than 10kw (and that means that you will have a three phase supply)then there are a variety of offers out there if you wish to change supplier.

This can be especially relevant if you use an "off peak" supply where you are billed at two different rates depending on the time of day that you use the supply.

Apart from that any savings offered by alternative suppliers are of very small value compared to the total yearly cost.
Fred,

we have 3-phase power, and were originally told that because we have 3-phase, we were obliged to sign a 10.8Kw minimum contract (ironically, this was considered an "upgrade" from our previous 22Kw). We use less than 3Kw in total (I have added up the power consumption of everything in the house), but we were told we had no choice - we were also told there would be no additional costs - but of course, we were charged nearly €300 for the free "installation" (no one ever showed up or performed any sort of installation whatsoever - it was all on paper).

Since that time, we have been consistently overbilled and double-billed with no opportunity for credit or refund. We have to this day overpaid more than €2000 for our power. We have proven it repeatedly and Endesa even admits it, but says they have no obligation to refund, since we cancelled direct debit to stop them from draining our bank account with their overcharges.

Not to mention we pay over €20 per month just for the permiso to have 10.8kw - before even one watt of consumption.

Now, we have been told by Endesa that 3-phase power was never restricted to 10.8Kw minimum, and that we can have 2.5, 5, or 7kw simply by signing a paper. We have also been told again that there will be absolutely no charge for changing the contract to say, 5Kw...

We've spoken to 3 different licenced electricians who all have said that Endesa will charge between €200-€500 for the change in contract, and will likely demand a boletin stating that the home is "safe" for a "downgrade" in the power, which will likely cost at least €300. Endesa still maintains there will be no cost.

I don't know who to believe anymore, but experience has taught me that I can least trust Endesa, and since they'll have something to lose if I switch, I have to assume that changing the contract to 5Kw will cost as much as €800 intially, and then I'm not sure what any other benefit will be. Lower tarif? I would like to try to calculate how long it will take to recoup the costs of changing the contract initially.

I suppose the elimination of the €20 per month "permiso" would be a good start, but how much will they charge for the "permiso" of 5kw? Do you know if the tarif is actually much lower for 5Kw? And will they still be able to over-bill and double bill anytime they wish? The electricians we've spoken to say it will be up to Endesa, which is unpredictable.

Can you offer any advice? - I find it all very unfair and confusing.
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Old Nov 28th 2011, 12:42 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

If you have 3 phase power and you have an ICP (which of course you should have) then you will have real problems if you downgrade the supply.

The problem is that a 3 phase ICP is effectively 3 seperate fuses. So you have, at the moment 3 circuits each with a maximum capacity of about 3.5kw. If you check your ICP then you should see it rated as 15A, that means each fuse is 15A giving you 45A in total.

As the various appliances around the house are spead over the three circuits this would normally not give any tripping out problems - it comes down to how well balanced the circuits are.

Now, if you downgrade to a 5kw supply the ICP will be changed to a 7.5A unit meaning that the maximum that any circuit will take is halved to less than 2KW which is certain to give you major problems.

Unless you are prepared to go to the expense of changing everything back to single phase there is not a lot you can do about it.

I had a 3 phase supply when we built our house as it has electric underfloor heating which, if it is all on at the same time, uses 17kw. As we were installing the off peak tariff, at that time an ICP was not required. That meant that we could happily turn almost everything on without tripping. For some strange reason we were only contracted for 4.9kw although the boletin was rated at up to 25kw.

It all went pear shaped when the law changed and we had to have an ICP fitted. They fitted a 7.5A unit and nothing worked! Eventually I ended up with a 20A unit rated at 13.8kw and even that gave tripping problems until I re-balanced all the circuits. That means my standing charge is now about €450/yr and the monthly bills are about 20% higher than they would be if I was on the normal controlled single phase tariff.

The only choice I have is to rewire the house etc and go single phase as I could just about manage on an 8.8kw supply if it was single phase.

I did change from Endesa to Iberdrola because their off peak rate was cheaper. Even then my annual bill is around €2000.
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Old Nov 28th 2011, 1:14 am
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by Fred James
If you have 3 phase power and you have an ICP (which of course you should have) then you will have real problems if you downgrade the supply.

The problem is that a 3 phase ICP is effectively 3 seperate fuses. So you have, at the moment 3 circuits each with a maximum capacity of about 3.5kw. If you check your ICP then you should see it rated as 15A, that means each fuse is 15A giving you 45A in total.

As the various appliances around the house are spead over the three circuits this would normally not give any tripping out problems - it comes down to how well balanced the circuits are.

Now, if you downgrade to a 5kw supply the ICP will be changed to a 7.5A unit meaning that the maximum that any circuit will take is halved to less than 2KW which is certain to give you major problems.

Unless you are prepared to go to the expense of changing everything back to single phase there is not a lot you can do about it.

I had a 3 phase supply when we built our house as it has electric underfloor heating which, if it is all on at the same time, uses 17kw. As we were installing the off peak tariff, at that time an ICP was not required. That meant that we could happily turn almost everything on without tripping. For some strange reason we were only contracted for 4.9kw although the boletin was rated at up to 25kw.

It all went pear shaped when the law changed and we had to have an ICP fitted. They fitted a 7.5A unit and nothing worked! Eventually I ended up with a 20A unit rated at 13.8kw and even that gave tripping problems until I re-balanced all the circuits. That means my standing charge is now about €450/yr and the monthly bills are about 20% higher than they would be if I was on the normal controlled single phase tariff.

The only choice I have is to rewire the house etc and go single phase as I could just about manage on an 8.8kw supply if it was single phase.

I did change from Endesa to Iberdrola because their off peak rate was cheaper. Even then my annual bill is around €2000.
Thanks, Fred,

Well, we have mostly gas appliances - Gas hob, oven, gas heating, gas boiler..... The only things that draw electricity are the lights (not big ones) the fridge, microwave, TV, computer, and the wash machine. The combined total electricity draw is about 3Kw, and only about 1.5Kw on average MAX. We only use 2 of the 3 phases, and the third phase is entirely disconnected from anything.

We do have a 3-phase 15A icp installed (which we pay 10c per day for, even though we purchsed it and had it installed by a licenced electrician two years ago - €175).

But Endesa installed a digital meter earlier this year. They now claim that the ICP is no longer necessary, because the digital meter will cut the power if we exceed our contracted supply. They claim that if we want to change our contract, they will simply change the maximum power at the meter, and there is no need to change the ICP. I don't know if this is true or not, but it's what they claim. I suppose we'll get charged a few hundred for that alone.

I do find it rather cheeky that we still pay 10c per day rental for the unneccessary ICP (which we purchased outright from the electrician). Still I suppose this is par for the course with Endesa. It's only €36.50 per year. I wish that were the limit of what they can bill on top of our consumption.

The 3kw of maximum power we use is distributed across the two phases. The washer. TV, and lights are one phase, and the kitchen is on the other phase. The third phase is not used at all.

Last year, we paid over €2000 in electricity bills (roughly €1000 more than we actually use or owe). But yes, after all the complaints and disputes and denuncias, I'm beginning to understand that there's little you can do about it. I wonder what the charges would be if we actually consumed the energy we are forced to pay for...
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Old Nov 28th 2011, 10:09 pm
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Default Re: New electricity company in our area...

Originally Posted by amideislas
But Endesa installed a digital meter earlier this year. They now claim that the ICP is no longer necessary, because the digital meter will cut the power if we exceed our contracted supply. They claim that if we want to change our contract, they will simply change the maximum power at the meter, and there is no need to change the ICP. I don't know if this is true or not, but it's what they claim. I suppose we'll get charged a few hundred for that alone.
That's very interesting. If the meter monitors each phase separately then it is just the same problem as the ICP but if it is capable of monitoring the total load it would be a major improvement.

I will have to look further into that as it could mean that we can downgrade to under 10kw and save a great deal of money - more than enough to cover the costs of a new meter.
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