Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

First of all thanks for reading.
I'm a Handyman hoping to relocate to spain. My plan is to purchase a property but still work on and off in the uk (2 weeks on one week off) I am currently self employed but have been wondering about being vat REGISTERED. My aim is to gradually build my clientele in spain with ex pats and or locals. I'm wondering what would be my best options moving forward. We are in our young 30's with 3 children. (8,14,16).
any help would be very much appreciated especially with the best tax or vat options.

Merry Christmas

Luke & Family

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Frankly I think this plan is beyond risky especially with 3 children to support. I suggest you do a lot more research and then do some joined-up thinking.

VAT is IVA here and is levied on all work - the system in this issue is very different to the UK.

Suggest you also look here to (maybe you already have) https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

Good luck with your plans, please don't rush into anything.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Have you looked at the cost of being self-employed (autonomo) in Spain?

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Apart from all the other things, you will need a work permit as the UK is no longer in the EU. Spain is a big country, so as always location is key.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

(My views / opinions are based on life, what I´ve learned and experienced in and around Malaga on the Costa del Sol.)

As snikpoh and spainrico have already said, that seems a little risky, but i´ll explain why, as just saying that and not giving a reason would be silly.

They both mentioned your working here when you finally make the move but before that, I´m going to talk about when you are back and forth to the UK.

1. As a UK resident there are residency issues - after brexit (1st of Jan) you´ll only be allowed 90 days in spain, out of every 180 days. so 3 months in every 6. This seems to work as you are saying 2 weeks working in the uk and 1 week here in spain. But the children would be going to school and your wife would have to get residencia. That means that you would need (i think i read) something like €30,000 in the bank and €400 a month income for her, and €12,000 for each child under 18. .. just to be able to apply for residency, which could be denied. So thats €42,000 in the bank and €400 a month on paper at the time of the residency application, and for the last 3 months at least (ie; you cant borrow it, put it in the bank, apply, then pay it back - they have caught onto that one...) Then you´ll need private health insurance for the family - this can be €5000 a year.

2. Self employed here is called "autonomo" - it costs €120 to register then €280 a MONTH just to be registered.(€3360/year) (with a 50% discount for the first year i believe). You´ll need a gestoria (legal advisor?) to handle your VAT etc, who charge about 80€ a month. Then you pay tax (vat) every 3 months on your earnings (from 0€, theres no allowance) - (I´m not "up" on taxes any more, i was self employed a few years ago, but things might of changed since then, please get some up to date advice before following anything i´ve said)

3. you said that you will buy a house here, you must have plenty in the bank. Thats fine - you are "allowed" to do that right now, with a mortgage or without. For a mortgage you need at least 20% of the price of the house that you are looking at, avaliable on the day that you sign the mortgage at the bank.

4. I assume the kids and your wife will live here in spain while you go back and forth. They´ll need to go to school here, will it be a "british" school? That will cost about €10,000 per term, per child. A Spanish school would be free, but they wouldn´t understand what everyone is saying for a while, and there are many reported cases of bullying. Books x 3 to pay for as well, and uniforms x 3 if they go to a british school (or some spanish schools, and assuming that the 16 year old will continue school to 18 years old, which they legally dont have to.)

5. Will your wife drive the kids to school, will she need a car? you can pick up an "old banger" for around a grand, but then bear in mind that car insurance for the first year (no claims in the uk doesnt always count) can be another grand on that. But then you could get a brand new "leasehire" for €250 a month all inclusive - a good option if you are looking at "new" cars.

6. Have you thought about the cost of flights every two weeks? thats 64 flights a year.... say each one is 50 euro? minimum, thats €3200 alone.

7. Have you thought about getting to the airport? Will you need a car as well? Another €2 grand. Parking at the airport is around €600/year for a basic outdoor package (20 trips - which would work for you because 1 trip per 3 weeks is 17x a year.)

8. then you have day to day expenses... food, clothes, petrol, going out... house taxes, electric, water, heating

9. english telly costs money - you can do it for free with apps on a smart tv, but the quality is generally poor / hit & miss.

I´m sure theres more to think about, but these are just things that pop into my head right away. When you add up the numbers its all a little over whelming. I´m sure I´ll think of more throughout the day tho.

So when you first move here you´ll need:
1. €42,000+€5000
2. €120+€280
3. 20% of the cost of the house - assuming 40k on a 200k house.
4. €30,000 + another €1000 on books and uniforms?
5. €2000
6. €50
7. €2600

so thats 140 grand just to get in.

Then monthly expenses of mortgage (€400), house tax - ibi (€50), electric (€150), gas (€50), water (pennies), fuel for 2 cars (€300), food (€400) - so thats €1350 a month. And you need to put money aside to pay the VAT on your work (the bill is quarterly). And you need to run your house in the uk, your car in the uk, pay taxes AS WELL in the uk. so thats the €1350 minimum for spain, plus say another €1000 / month for the UK ?

Spain is great if you have a pension or can work remotely online, but for the "working classes" like us ... life is difficult.

Obviously some of these things are just "assumptions" and wont apply to you. But if most of these things are right, then it looks like you´d need €200k in the bank at least, just come and live a year, until you start making money here - I´m sure that some people will disagree, and tell you that they can do it for half that, maybe they can, maybe they cant. This is a big move and needs ALOT of research first.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

I would not disagree with any of that - but perhaps the most fundamental question of all is do you really think Spain needs another handyman?

Sorry if that sounds brutal but reality has to be faced and Spain has strict laws about who can legally touch electric installations etc.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

True and unless you speak Spanish how would you deal with all the formalities that exist. There doesn't seem to be many who offer this type of work in our area but that's because the electrician is the electrician and the painter is the painter, so unless you were able to sign off the work and have all the required permits, the only other option is working for a hotel where you have enough Spanish applicants/or work for someone else as the low pay foreigner.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

spainrico that is another point, while "your mate in the pub" (a genralisation, not directed at you spainrico ) might tell you "oh yeah that´s what we need round here, a decent handyman"... chances are that that man in the pub hasnt been out, doesn´t speak spanish and hasn´t looked at apps / newspapers in spanish, or doesn´t want to pay the over inflated prices that are charged by english "tradesmen". There really are hundreds, if not thousands of people advertising this service, exactly why i stopped doing it myself.

15? years ago I used to charge €5 per hour, and would go on recomendations / word of mouth. I paid autonomo and I bought everything i needed with reciepts so i could claim the IVA back. I had 2 or 3 "regular" clients that i would get other work out of, but for some reason I was out of the house alot and never had alot of money to show for it. I supported our household, but never had the sort of cash left over i had in the uk.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Welcome to the forum Luke.

All valid points in the responses above. If you still want to give it a go I would be tempted to do it the other way round. Try renting a small apartment in Spain and commute from the UK once every 2 weeks. If you do manage to gain work and get yourself established then you could consider relocating permanently. This way you're not putting your family at risk.

Good luck

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Where I live there are a lot of "out of work" handymen who will gladly pop round and paint, decorate, plumb or do most odd jobs for next to nothing.

Steve

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Fantastic great feedback. Working in Spain is something I plan to do in my late 40s if I need to. I'm in a high income and would be a cash buyer to a property with no loans or mortgage. My expenses at home are almost none as my van is also a fully converted campervan with free parking at a friend's. Next to Gatwick Airport. My eldest son is home schooled and this may be something we continue with the other two. All these REPLYS are extremely helpful. Thank you

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

You will need to research home schooling thoroughly because my understanding is that is not encouraged or may not be allowed here.

Rosemary

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Well at least now you are more informed, hopefully things will work out for you. And welcome to BE.com :thumbup:

But yes, as Rosemary says, homeschooling, while not illegal in itself, is frowned upon, and can get you / your partner in trouble. Do a bit of research on that too.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Wow bfg69bug that is one of the best feedbacks I think I ever read on B.E well-done mate, I am sorry to say I total agree with you. I have all ways tried to encourage people when they have thought of a move to Spain for us it is a great life and whished we had come earlier but know with every thing that is going on I really do not think it is a good move. I would wait and see how every thing pans out and settles down in these unsettled times especially with three young kids. I think you are spot on with your post !

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

It might be helpful if you clarified whether you have an EU passport, apologies if you've said this but I didn't spot it.
If you only have a UK passport, you need to bear in mind that you don't have the automatic right either to work in Spain, or to live in Spain and not work there. Up to the end of the year it was possible for Brits to plan their moves in the EU pretty much to suit themselves. After this year, it will be more a case of finding out what your visa options are, and planning your life around meeting those visa criteria.
You might want to start by checking whether Spain actually offers a visa that would allow you to immigrate to Spain whilst carrying on working in another country. Most countries don't. Usually one option is a non-working visa where you have to prove that you have enough income to be self supporting without engaging in any economic activity, so basically retired or early retired with a pension or some kind of unearned income such as from property. Or there are visas that allow you to live and work in a country, but these are usually quite difficult to get because as said above you either need to invest big time and make a serious contribution to the country's economy, or you need some kind of niche talent that is in short supply such as being a whizz chemist or engineer, or you need a cultural or artistic project that would be of benefit to the country. Basically countriies' immigration policies are designed to be selective, and so would-be immigrants need to convince the visa authorities that they will be net contributors. To put it bluntly, the Spanish visa authorities would likely take the view that a person who will be working as a handyman in the UK, will not obviously be contributing a great deal either to the Spanish economy or to the Spanish taxman or to Spanish society or culture.
Of course if you still have freedom of movement none of that applies because you will not have to go through immigration.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

I am taking a punt here and imagine you dont speak Spanish? If so how are going to obtain your Spanish driving licence?

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

He´ll not need to for a year or so, so he´s got time to learn. If he´s allowed in.. :lol:

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Well if he goes through the immigration process, doesn't that include obligatory Spanish language and integration classes?
In France when you enter France on a visa you have to go to these classes. You learn enough of the language to get by, you learn the French citizens code and what your rights and obligations are, they teach you about French culture and customs, and about French institutions and how the administration works - healthcare, tax, benefits etc - and then you have to produce a certificate to say that you have completed all your classes, before you are given your titre de séjour.
I guess there is something similar in Spain?

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

I dont think in Spain that official integration support is offered to basic immigrants . Maybe for asylum seekers. Spanish is only officially required for nationalisation although you would need to to get your driving licence and you wouldn't be able to learn adequate Spanish for that without a few years study.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Yes you are right Chipmonk, apparently Spain doesn't really do this, although surprise surprise it seems to vary region to region.
I found this https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integra...vernance/spain
I must admit I kind of felt that in France, third country immigrants have a head start over EU incomers. Some Brits used to just kind of drift across the Channel and they had no clue where to go and what they had to do as new residents, in fact it was surprising how little some knew about how France works even after living there for several years. Not surprisingly TCNs tend to be far more clued up and although the bureaucracy is no doubt a hassle I suspect it actually makes settling in is less stressful because at least you know what to do and how to do it..

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

Admittedly it seems rather unfair as ( I am pretty sure) the UK requires all immigrants to have a level of English to gain residency whereas the same does not apply to immigrants settling in Spain vis a vis Spanish.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

As far as I remember there was nothing about frontier workers for post-Brexit British citizens in the Withdrawal Agreement, so working in one country but residing in another is going to be difficult.

I'm going to suggest a residency and work visa as a freelancer/self-employed person where you work in the UK and transfer your income to a Spanish bank account, but this is just a guess. See the "Self-employed and freelance workers in Spain" heading here. In any case the embassy should help choose the right one, if the person you're talking to is having a good day. And you're going to need tax advice too, which the embassy certainly won't help with.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

The question of frontier workers has been addressed in the withdrawal agreement signed last January. UK is going to issue frontier worker permit to those eligible (have worked in UK before the end of transition period without being a UK resident), and similar scheme will operate for British citizens working in one EU country without being a resident.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

But does it cover freelancers or self employed ?

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

I don't know about what Spain does, but frontier worker permit in UK is available for self-employed:
Frontier Worker permit - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

That is for EU citizens who reside in the EU but work in the UK. If you're British (or Irish) you can't use that even if you do reside in Spain, and in any case it's a British government permit.

The visa I mentioned looks like it is the closest Spanish equivalent for non-EU citizens, but as I said that is my guess. The first step would be to ask the embassy.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

I know that, but I assumed that Spain and other EU countries are in a position to issue similar document to UK frontier worker on the basis of reciprocity.

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

This permit came about due to Brexit and it's aimed at pre-2021 cross-border workers working in the UK, residing in the EU, and having EU nationality.

The Spanish equivalent is not necessary in this case, firstly because the OP is post-2021 and secondly because the work is being carried out outside of Spain.

As cross-border provisions in the WA are only for British/EU citizens who are currently cross-border workers up till this year, from 2021 onwards regular visas are required. See the "Conclusion" section here for what this means for EU citizens, and of course this is reciprocated for British citizens.

So a post-2021 cross-border worker working in the UK, resident in Spain, and having British nationality would be able to access the UK to work without any permit and would have to apply to Spain for a residency visa which allows work to be carried out outside of Spain.

I might have laboured a few points above, but I wanted to get it clear. Of course I could also be wrong, but at least I would be clearly wrong. :)

Re: Moving to spain - working in the uk.
 

No I think you are clearly right DLC. The frontalier visa is the exact opposite of what the OP needs. The purpose of this document is to give permission to work in a country, not to live there.
But the OP doesn't need a oermit to work in the UK. What he needs is a visa to live in Spain

Good luck with finding a visa that lets him live in Spain while keeping the centre of his economic life in a different country. The reason I think this visa is unlikely to exist is because what's in it for Spain? Immigration policies are designed to benefit the country, and it's hard to see exactly how it benefits Spain to provide services such as education, security etc to foreigners who haven't made any significant investment in Spain and don't pay any taxes or social security contributions there (because if he works in the UK and his business is established in the UK, tjhen as per the tax treaty he'll pay income tax, corporation tax and NICs in the UK)..
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