Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
We are in the process of buying a small village house in the village of Raspay, 7 minutes from Pinoso.
This is the first time we have done anything like this and, knowingly, in hindsight, have already made some cardinal errors.
We have not been able to check the credentials of the agent representing the seller and have accepted their recommendation for a legal representative.
We also paid a deposit to the agent to demonstrate our intention to buy the property but have seen it advertised on other agents' sites.
Also there is an embargo on the property but we have been informed that the seller must pay all outstanding debts before the property may be sold.
This has been explained as 'the debts will be paid from the funds'.
It is not clear what 'funds' these are.
At the moment we are about to visit in February and complete paperwork etc.
However, our concern is that gnawing doubt, or fear, of being ripped off or bamboozled in some way.
Lots of what we have read indicates the pitfalls of buying in Spain at the moment despite the drop in prices.
So, could any of you offer the positives and maybe offer some advice or encouragement based on your experiences and 'local knowledge'.
Many thanks for any responses.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Oh dear, where to start.

• Every piece of advice given by this and other forums states "DO NOT USE A SOLICITOR RECOMMENDED BY THE AGENT"!
• There is NO guarantee that the debts (embargo) will be cleared using the funds - that is, the money you pay to buy the property. Be aware, be very aware.

So, my advice, get an independent solicitor (legal representative). Hold some money back so that YOU clear the debts and the embargo. However, to do this, you need to know EXACTLY how much this is going to be.

Friends of ours bought a property knowing that the IBI hadn't been paid for a few years. They were told to hold on to 2000 euros to cover this debt. It subsequently turned out that the debt was nearer 10k!!!!!

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.

BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.

Please let me know if you need any further help.

Rosemary

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Sorry, but I doubt you are going to get ANY positive responses given the info in your post, as you say you have done everything WRONG. You may well be waiting several years before the embargo is lifted, and where is there any guarantee that the 'funds' will, in fact, be used to lift the embargo. Once the seller, or his agent, has the money, you may find that they just disappear. We sold our Spanish house using a gestor recommended to us, and he waltzed off with €6000 which was witheld by the notary for possible tax problems, which he was going to sort out, he left the firm and we couldn't contact him, the money disappeared from the bank.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Do not hand over another euro to anyone until you know what you are doing. Your agent will try to scare you into going through with this on time if he finds you using another solicitor. If you follow his advice you may lose everything. You have to sit back and think, although time is running out. You need an independent solicitor first but even this is not a guarantee that he will tell you everything. YOU need to use your head and not follow your heart. An embargo can be from anything, be it a fine from the Hacienda, an unpaid bill from the town hall, or even a court fine. If the debt is an amount that the owner cannot pay until he sells up then the embargo can be anything, even the value of the property, and you may be liable. I knew of a property that had an embargo the size of the house. Only believe what you can see, i.e. read every document involved. Ask your new solicitor questions for even the smallest of details you do not understand. It is your money you can lose so ask about everything. Translate documents if you have to. I would rely on a third party doing this for me, not my solicitor. There are many in the UK. The cost will be minimal considering the loss that may be involved. YOU need to do something NOW and not rely on solicitors.
First, phone, do not email, your solicitor and ask him what funds will pay for the embargo. When he tells you ask him to put it in writing. If he makes any kind of excuse, ditch him.
Next, is your agent British? If so, call him NOW, this minute, and ask him to forward you documentation to say which funds will pay for the embargo.
When you have this information you can give this to your new solicitor and start again. I may be scare-mongering, but it is better to play safe.
TRUST NO ONE! Never be afraid to phone these people. Do it now. This minute. Remember, you have friends on this forum who will give you good advice. Please keep us informed what you are doing and what happens. I strongly suggest you do not go into a bar in Spain and ask them for advice.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
Thanks for all your speedy responses.
Here is an extract from the most recent correspondence from our agent:
"The other agents have been informed that the property is under offer and a reservation deposit paid but a lot of agents leave it on the internet until the sale completes, however, the owner will not take viewings on the house.

We don't have copies of any house plans. I'm not sure if any exist but I will ask Axxxxx to check with the seller.

Payment is normally made to the owner by direct debit or bank transfer. You will need a Spanish bank account to pay this. We can help you set up an account here. Are you using xxxxxx for your transfer of funds? If so they have an agreement with xxxxxxx (local branch available in Pinoso) which entitles you to free banking for 1 year. The payment that you make to the owner will be the price of the house less the money owed for any debts which will be retained by Axxxxx and used to pay any outstanding monies, this will guarantee that everything is paid."
I'd appreciate any additional advice as, following your immediate responses, I already feel a bit more empowered to ask the right questions.
Thank you for your kindness.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

‘The payment that you make to the owner will be the price of the house less the money owed for any debts which will be retained by Axxxxx and used to pay any outstanding monies, this will guarantee that everything is paid
I don’t understand this statement. You are being asked to pay the price of the house less the money owed. This money owed will be retained by the solicitor to pay the outstanding debt.
So what is the price of the house less the debt? Is this what you pay? Get some figures from your agent and solicitor. And if all you pay is the price less the money owed for any debts ‘which will be retained by the solicitor and used to pay any outstanding monies’ what is retained by the solicitor, who from, who pays it?
Get some figure on paper from both your agent and solicitor NOW.
As I said do not do anything more until you have figures to work with.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Again, not wishing to scare you further, the embargo COULD be because the house is illegal!

Have you seen the following;

• Escritura (deeds)
• IBI (catastral payments)
• Licence of occupation (first or secondary)
• Land registry documents (will show the details of the embargo)

I guess the biggest problem is that they are telling you what the debt amount is - is this valid? They are also telling you that the solicitor will pay the debt - it's not unknown for this NOT to happen. You should be in control and not them.

I assume that if the house costs 100k and the debt is 10k, then you pay the owner 90k and the solicitor 10k?? Hmmmm - recipe for dissaster (IMHO)!

You don't need to have a Spanish bank - presumably you could pay cash or you could do a transfer from your UK bank.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
What's your take on this from the 'lawyer'?
I am asking out of wariness.
" I´m Axxxxx the gestor recommended by xxxxxx? About the property you want to buy:
I contact a few days ago with the seller to obtain a copy of the paperwork. I have checked the documentation and that´s the situation:
The property has on the deeds 145 sqm. In reality has around 209 sqm., but the building size is correct. Unfortunately this problem is very usual in the country side but the most important is has the correct building size. I will try put in order catastro (on plans) but on the land registry is impossible extended the size. Are you okay with this? (Annex to you in PDF the plans and measurements for help to you to understand the situation)."
Followed by:
"The original owner of the property has problems whit the banks and government he sell the property to the actual company, but the company don´t bring the deeds to the land registry on time and the creditor put a lock (embargo) on the house in the land registry, even if the seller has already passed the debt and have the certificate in his possession ready to cancel in the notary at the same time when they sell the house to you.
The embargo does means you can´t sell the property until is paid the debt to the bank, government or another company."
Ideally I would like the sale to be 100% above board without this shadow of debt etc? hanging over the property.
I appreciate there has to be an element of trust between all parties but there also, I feel, has to be complete transparency in any transaction.
So thank you for your advice and honest, unbiased opinions as they allow me to make more informed judgements and formulate the correct questions to illicit important answers.
Thanks.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Best advise I can give is for the sake of a few Hundred Euros get a second Solicitor but do not tell the first one,
email them all the paperwork that you receive and they will advise questions to ask back, when I purchased a couple of years ago I asked for a solicitor on this site and got peace of mind from a firm in Alicante, they even met me at the notary and translated the completion...call it insurance
Good Luck

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

This is one of the best I’ve heard so far. I don’t know what he is talking about. Ask him three very simple questions.
What is the debt on the property?
What is owed to whom, in precise figures?
Who actually owns the property?
And get another lawyer, one who speaks excellent English so you can understand him. Ask to see the deeds (escritura). By the way, is the property new? Is the difference in size due to an (illegal) extension? He really hasn’t told you anything yet. He is asking you, re the difference in size, ‘are you okay with this?’ A REAL lawyer would not ask you. Tell him NO because in a year or several year’s time they will come down on you and you will have to either pay up or demolish the extension. He should have told you this BEFORE you paid a deposit. It is no use asking you if you are okay with this after.
Did your agent or the lawyer tell you any of this in writing before you paid a deposit?
You must get some precise figures. Have you asked them yet? He is not talking like a lawyer should.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

If the money you have paid up to now is just an initial deposit to have the property taken off the market (please, tell me you haven't signed a compraventa and paid the full 10% deposit), then could you afford to lose that amount of money and just walk away from this? Because if so, that's what I would advise you to do.

When I bought my house I did make an initial payment of €1,000 and if a can of worms similar to the one you have described had been opened up, I would have written it off and started over.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Lynn, that would have been my next post.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
Below is a copy of the contract we sent back to the agent.
We haven't signed anything but have paid the deposit and provided our passport numbers and agreed a price.
I have spoken with the lawyer on the phone and he is in agreement that the sale cannot go ahead until all debt is cleared from the property.
The seller has since asked for the deposit paid to the agent to clear whatever debt he has.
I have stated that I am not prepared to go ahead with anything until I have all relevant paperwork in place and all debt is cleared.
After reading the advice on your site I am quite prepared to walk away and lose the cash. Not happy, but prepared to select the lesser of two evils.
However, I am perplexed by why is it such a minefield?
Obviously there are plenty of British who have made the move successfully without all the hassle.
Or I may be assuming it was all hassle free.
Whatever, I wish I'd located your site earlier.
I think newbies definitely need some to 'hold their hand' when venturing into the 'mire'.
It all could turn out to be my exaggerated caution but I feel there is a need to be careful and thanks for your local knowledge.

COPY BELOW


Fecha/Date:

Contrato de reserva/Reservation Contract

Por una parte La Agencia: xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx Pinoso (Alicante),xxxxxx
On one part as the Agency: xxxxxxx xxxxxx Estate Agents with address in xxxxxxxxx Pinoso, (Alicante), 03650.

De otra parte como comprador: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx mayor de edad, de nacionalidad xxxxxxxxxxxxx con números de pasaporte/NIE xxxxxxxxxxxxxx con domicilio en xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
On the other part as the buyer: xxxxxxxxxxxxx of legal age, of nationality xxxxxxx with passport numbers/NIE xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and with address xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

La propied: .xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The property: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Para ello todas partes aceptan y formalizar el contrato de reserva siguiente.
For this all parties accept and formalize the following reservation contract.

Las estipulaciones/ Stipulations 

1. Que el vendedor, está de acuerdo, para vender a los compradores de la propiedad.
1. That the seller, is in agreement, to sell to the buyer the property.

2. El precio pactado por la venta de esta propiedad es de xxxxx€
2. The agreed price for the sale of this property is xxxx€

3. El comprador se compromete a pagar el importe de 3,000€ en concepto de depósito en retención en la propiedad, asi como a retirarla de la comercialización durante 30 dias.
Este depósito es reembolsable, si la documentación de la propiedad no está en orden antes de la fecha de venta acordado.
3. The buyer agrees to pay the sum of 3,000€ as a reservation deposit on the property therefore removing the property from the sale market for a period of 30 days. This deposit will be refundable, if the property paperwork is not in order by the agreed sale date.



Compradores (Buyers) La Agencia (The Agency)

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

I understand that the seller requires some of the money to waive the debts but this is really 'chicken and egg'.

From the looks of what you've signed, the 'deposit' (gentleman's agreement) is being held by the agent and is totally refundable if you do not get the required paperwork. Do you have the business details of the agent (NIF etc.)?

I think your solicitor needs to get hold of (copies of) all documentation now and not wait until the completion date. When you get to the notary, it is probably too late and certainly too stressful to pull out then if things are not in order.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

That is the same or similar contract we signed a few months ago for a property near Baza.
Why would you lose your money if you walked away as the contract clearly states the money would be refundable in the event of a paperwork problem?
We are about to sign the 10% contract and are going over the week of the 19th to sign for the house at the Notary office.
I fully sympathise with how you are feeling as it has been like treading on egg shells getting this far, selling in the UK and buying abroad not for the feint hearted.
This forum has been really useful during the research and preparation stages and has enabled me to ask questions of lawyers and estate agents that even they are surprised at!!
Good luck fingers crossed all will be well for you.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

I'm very glad it's only a reservation contract and that your money should be refundable. My advice would be not to continue with the purchase and to get it back.

Even if the problem regarding the embargo can be resolved satisfactorily, you would still be left with the problem above. The lawyer would "try" to put things in order with Catastro, but "on the land registry is impossible"? Why would you want to end up with a house that can't be properly registered in all respects? I certainly wouldn't be "okay with this". If for no other reason that the problem would still be there if you in turn ever wanted to sell the house.

It is something people come across quite often, because in years gone by it was commonplace for people to build extensions and do alterations to their properties without obtaining the correct licences and having the registration details amended (which costs money, and building licence permission for what they wanted to do might not have been granted anyway). But there are so many properties on the market at the moment, keep looking and you can find one that doesn't land you with these kinds of problems, and the state of the market is such that no-one else is likely to come along and snatch your dream property from under your nose whilst the vitally necessary checks are done, no matter what an agent may tell you. You know now how you should proceed and what to look for, at least.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Well said LR. This is what happened in respect of our property. The title deeds
did not reflect the size of the property. In fairness it was the land size, the deeds stated that it was 8 Hectares but the size being sold was 2.2 Hectares.
This is as you say not uncommon as plots of land from say previously large farms
get sold off over the years and the deeds do not always reflect this.
Our lawyer would not let us proceed until the seller had an architect attend the property at his expense re measure the property and provide a certificate duly stamped to reflect the new size. This will be reflected in the new deeds.
So not insurmountable but something that as you say needs to be done or you will inherit the problem.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Ray, have you asked the lawyer and the agent what the debt is, and what is owed to whom? And who actually owns the property, the seller, the bank, the government (?), or the company (??). The best advice has already been posted, i.e. get your deposit back and walk away. Have you phoned your lawyer or agent yet to ask these questions since you first posted on here?

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
I have had a whole bunch of paperwork, all in Spanish, since utilising the advice from this forum and asking the right questions.
Now need to have documents translated and ask some more relevant questions.
Many thanks for your help and sound advice.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Now I am curious. If your lawyer and agent can both speak English, what did they tell you about the debt and who owes what and owns what when you phoned them? Why are the documents they have just sent you in Spanish when your lawyer has already sent you documents in both Spanish and English? Are they playing for time for some reason? If your lawyer is working for you then he should provide these documents translated into English. Have you phoned them and spoken to them yet?

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Hi,
Yes, I have spoken with the lawyer but it was only the 'threat' of pulling out of the deal if all paperwork was not in place before the 30 day deadline to the agent, that prompted the sudden flourish of information all in Spanish.
I have requested translations.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

The lawyer is slightly reticent in forwarding full translations of the documents. However, I had a go myself with the land registry using google translate. Not the most perfect way to proceed but following that here is my response to the lawyer.
"Hi,
I appreciate you would not be able to translate everything but there was a lot of information to retain and process from the telephone conversation.
I am still confused how the owner will satisfy a €284.282,37 imposition with the sale price of €44.000 for the house, less what commission is paid to the agents arranging the sale?
Also the 'land registry' indicates that from February 11, 2009 there is a four year period for settlement of debts amounting to €546. That was last April. Was that debt paid?
Then the whole estate is encumbered with the huge debt already mentioned along with €7.581,67 interest from April 23, 2012. That is a debt of over a quarter of a million euros!
From that time it has a further five year imposition that would take it to April 2017.
I need an explanation of this in English. How much is owed, by whom and has it been paid?
The house is also described as a farm that has been 'reformed' as a dwelling.
Part of this was for livestock? If this was the case, how do we obtain full legal status of the dwelling as a dwelling since the reformation?
Finally, I need an assurance, in writing, that the discrepancies in floor space and area of the boundaries are in accordance with any local planning laws for the type of property described and there would not be future difficulties issuing from the local authorities.
In essence, I do not wish to inherit debts on the property. I do not wish to find that any of the reformation does not already meet existing planning and construction laws and is all fully paid for, if legal. I do not wish to discover that there are any confusions relating to inheritance because of the way the land has been parcelled up.
To make any head way with the sale all these would have to be 100% water tight and all relevant paperwork in place before February 02, 2014.
Many thanks."
So that's the state of play at the moment...
Such a shame. It's a good price for a slice of Spain but the horror stories make buyers wary, which is a no win situation for sellers and buyers.
Those levels of mistrust grind the whole system to a stagnant standstill.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

I'm sure you'll be familiar with the old saying - if something seems too good to be true ...... (just fill in the blanks).

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

I am surprised that with a debt of over 250,000 you are still talking about the size of the property does not match the escritura. What did I say to you last week? If your lawyer tries to fob you off, WALK AWAY. Ray, is this a wind-up? Are you still seriously contemplating buying this debt ridden house? This seems to me a ploy to get some money out of an unsuspecting Brit, i.e. you. Do you know what I would do this minute? Get on your phone to your agent and ask him some questions. I keep telling you this. Did your agent tell you about this debt before you paid a deposit? If not get your deposit back. Ask your lawyer how the ‘owner’ can service the debt from the house sale, as he told you the ‘owner’ would. Your agent says the very same words ‘The payment that you make to the owner will be the price of the house less the money owed for any debts which will be retained by Axxxxx and used to pay any outstanding monies, this will guarantee that everything is paid.’ Ask him how? Do it now.
Ray, you must know this is impossible.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

I would get on the phone and tell the agent to eff off. Plenty of legal houses....lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Please walk away - now!



From the old song; "There may be trouble ahead ...."

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

response from lawyer....
There is no longer any debt on the house it has all been paid. The owner paid everything months ago but didn´t take the deeds to the land registry to stamp the cancellation, now the land registry has to certify this, that is all, the house has no debt. When you sign for the house there will not exist any debt.

The house has always been a house and never a farm. Yes, the property has been reformed and I will take a certificate of no infraction from the town hall to ensure that there is no legal problem with the reformation. In the case that an owner reforms a property without project or license then after 4 years the property becomes legal anyway. In this case the reform was done more than 4 years ago and without planning consent then the town of Yecla can’t do anything about it now, they must provide the necessary certificates.

I cannot give any written guarantee regarding the build size and boundaries, I can provide the certificates from the town hall saying that they are okay with the house. There cannot be any issues with inheritance on the property from a previous owner once you own the house. I can try to have all of the paperwork required in place for the 2nd February but I cannot say 100% as I need to obtain documents from different offices and I can’t say how long I will have to wait for them. You will be here the 19th February so I have a little more time to have everything ready. You will have the same problem with any country property that you wish to buy in Spain. These problems are inherent and we can try as far as is possible to ensure that the paperwork is in good order for sale but we have to work within the limitations of the government offices.

I understand that you are concerned for buying a property in another country without understanding fully the legal implications and the language. I am here to represent you and make sure as far as is possible to buy a house with the paperwork in good order and with no future implications to you.

Does this sound more 'kosher?'

Re: Moving to Raspay
 

Your lawyer has contradicted himself. At best you will buy a property that could, no matter what your lawyer says, one day receive a visit from Yecla Town Hall. At worst, you will be responsible for a massive debt. What do you think you should do?