Jon-Bxl

Since Brexit we have seen nationality applications soar in expat 'home countries' = HC. Including Ireland, who have run out of forms!!

By this I mean people who have decided to leave the UK and make a new life at the HC (like me). Our UK passport gives us the right to return at any time, but I know many expats, across Europe, that don't see this as their plan. So now they are seeking nationality/permanent residence or equivalent, depending on the country.

Sticking to those going for full blown nationality, and who have been resident a long time, I have a question. In a post referendum world, do the HC countries have a 'moral argument' to say 'you are only seeking nationality as a result of brexit, otherwise you would have applied before'?

National pride and annoyance over brexit gives the HC a case, for post-brexit applications, yes or no?

I am NOT suggesting that expats should be kicked out, just wondering if the HC has an argument to reject nationality, based on this.

I do wonder why people didn't go for dual nationality before (where possible), if they had planned to be resident for the long term or for ever. Even without a well publicised referendum on the cards. The referendum coming in the future would only trigger that in the past IMO.

Now there are a lot of worried people (as we've seen across the forum), many going for nationality only now. I do think many should have done it before, as now the demand is so high that there must be delays.

I suspect I'm setting myself up to be flamed but actually wondering what people feel about this and vice-versa should the UK give nationality too?

Jon

BritInParis

If you qualify under the nationality rules in the country in question then you should be permitted to naturalise. There's no 'moral argument' to say you shouldn't because of your motivation. The motivation is the same - to secure your long term future in the country - Brexit has just acted as a catalyst to speed up the process or prompt you to make a decision. Few people naturalise in a country through a deep sense of acquired patriotism. It's almost always a practical legal consideration. The same applies to EU residents in the UK now rushing to apply for permanent residence and naturalisation.

Jon-Bxl

I agree the rules are there and so far, haven't been changed. If you comply then the application should be processed normally. You would agree, I think, that the flood of applications will take longer to process however.

But shouldn't these people have done it before especially if they, as you say,
1) want(ed) to secure their future
2) don't feel particularly 'patriotic' to the HC (so the application is just a tool for them)
3).. As I say, a referendum was guaranteed to come...'writing on the wall'

But looking at the HC authorities - who generally are patriotic, do they have some sort of argument to revise the rules for nationality? This was the actual question in the OP - the view from their side of the water.

Perhaps have some sort of a long term resident visa, for those non-patriotic expats, who want to protect their chosen lifestyle and have only taken action post-brexit, leaving the concept of nationality more aligned with some sort of patriotism...

Jon

EuroTrash

But I think to a large extent it's self regulating.

I don't know about other countries, but to be granted French nationality you are required to prove a certain commitment to France - not just your physical presence here but speaking the language, understanding the values of French society, where they came from historically and how they have developed and how they operate today and what your duties as a citizen are, and "integration" which a lot of people seem to think means buying the mayor a drink and talking to your neighbours but if you actually read the government website, what it actually says is "professional integration" which means having worked in France, ie thrown in your lot here, put your back into it and made a useful contribution to the economy and to society.

So if you have done all that but have just never bothered to apply for citizenship because of the paperwork or whatever, I don't see any real moral issue with doing so now.

But for people who've lived here for years on income from the UK and have never, up to now, bothered to learn French or find out what their duties as a citizen are, and now all of a sudden they are learning the national anthem and starting French lessons and finding out all the things they should have found out years ago, then yes I do see a moral issue there, it's a bit too close to bad faith for my liking. But, I think these people will fall down on proving professional integration. Most people who have genuinely made France their home, working here and leading a full life here, will have learned the language and taken on board how French society operates. I don't think the authorities will have too much difficulty distinguish those ones, from the ones who have been on a long holiday and who only want citizenship so that they can carry on living their UK lifestyle here. It isn't just a box ticking exercise, there is also an interview, and I'm sure those who conduct the interviews know what they're looking for. So it's up to the authorities whether or not they're going to take pity on them or not.

frugeois

Your middle sentence applies to me, furthermore, I was born in a former French colony and have spoken the language for nearly all of my 72 years( bar the first couple of course).I just completed my 24th year of residence.

Jon-Bxl

Good point, thanks. In France there is a 'stronger' sense of nationality and patriotism/way of life. So there it should be better regulated. Post Brexit applications will therefore be looked at (perhaps) in a more searching way.

In Belgium there are language tests, but no interview and no e.g swearing loyalty to the king or taking an oath. Like they do in some countries. So the French way is more subjective, especially with the interview part.

I still think long term residents should have done something about this before the referendum though... and if the nationality gets rejected for this reason, then they cant say they weren't pre-warned.

Thanks
Jon

Lorna at Vicenza

You wonder why people didn't go for dual nationality before (where possible), if they had planned to be resident for the long term or for ever.

For many reasons. I don't have Italian citizenship although I could have applied for it many years ago. The only difference it would have made to my life would have been an Italian passport - didn't need or want one, and the right to vote. Voting? Well politics is just one big joke in Italy anyway.

Expense. Not cheap and with 2 kids, cars and a house to run, there is always something that takes priority.

Hassle. Document upon document upon document. Some of them hard to get and all of them that need to be legally translated so more expense.

It wouldn't have made a difference to my children as in, they didn't need me to have Italian citizenship so that they could then claim through me. They already are Italian and British by descent.

Was it a necessity? No. Was I lazy about it? Probably. Did I care? No.

Jon-Bxl

Errr you seem to have taken this personally. Not my intention. If you read the OP I am focussing on the people who had decided to leave their country and take permanent residence 'abroad'. Those people who are only now applying for nationality after Brexit - when they knew a referendum was coming.

You clearly are well set up and don't need it and are fine. Great.

However I do think there is a logic, even without a referendum coming, to take nationality in the country you intend to stay in, some people will do it and some like you wont for good reasons. I see no harm in having a second passport, and it could turn out to be useful - as we have seen from the FLOOD of nationality applications post referendum.

I also queried whether the HC authorities have a 'case' to be more tough, or even change nationality rules for post Brexit applicants.
Jon

Lorna at Vicenza

Well I didn't take it personally as in, let's ask Lorna but I did think you were asking why people who have been in European countries a long time have never bothered. I'm one of those that never bothered so I just added my bit to the discussion.

Jon-Bxl

I understand Lorna. But there are many people applying now that wish they had bothered. They will join a very long queue and it will take much longer now. Also they may get rejected, as for example as we learned in France, there is an interview stage...as well as tests etc. They have to prove a desire to become French - not just because we voted for brexit. I do have a little sympathy for that view. But those applications that are in now should be judged by the current rules, in the HC, that so far haven't changed.

You are OK and clearly have no need for it - good for you. You've saved yourself a lot of hassle and expense - as you say

Buona giornata

Jon

EsuriJohn

Well we are going back to our Irish roots did the family trees back in 2000 Irish granddaughter born in 2013 forms obqtained in April filled in ready to go. Will of course still retain British Citizenship (don't fully understand the open borders relationship between UK/Ireland but it has been around since 1920) but for us there are a multitude of reasons not least BREXIT. I was a remainer not for most of the reasons being argued about ad nausum but because I believed in Europe. I have studied both world wars very deeply and don't think there would be a third starting in Europe if we work together and that was happening. Both sides of Ireland were quietly and slowly coming together helped I believe by Europe so many good things thrown out with the referendum.

EuroTrash

But if their application is rejected now on the grounds that they can't convince the officials that they're citizen material - not integrated or can't speak the language or whatever - why would they have fared any better if they'd applied years ago? Or are you saying that you think the decision-makers are going to be tougher with post-Brexit applications in the months/years to come, and will reject applications that 2 years ago they would have accepted?

Jon-Bxl

Those people now applying for citizenship are obviously hoping to get it, and reckon (based on the rules that haven't changed) that they have a good chance. If they are my 'target group', as mentioned in the OP, i.e long term expats who plan to remain in the HC, who are now applying post-referendum, then they could/should have applied earlier. Certainly when the Conservatives won the election. To protect themselves, as they are trying to do now.

Of course a rejection today would have been a rejection yesterday, but that's not the point I'm trying to discuss.

Many EU countries are not happy with Brexit (e.g France), and may get tougher, yes, especially if they reckon that the only reason for the citizenship application is brexit. I confess to having some sympathy for that, (and asked for opinions on that) but as I said they need to process the applications based on the rules today. But governments often make changes retrospectively (As Hollande did for the taxation of second homes for sale in France)

Yes, they may even toughen up the laws too. It looks like France already have a tough regime as they have a lot of national pride about citizenship - as I mentioned tougher than Belgium (currently). And as you mentioned in France it could be self-regulating. But other countries like Belgium may toughen up... Countries may also have a quota, which with the influx of applications could be quicker met = more rejections.

Finally any application now will certainly take longer as there is a big uptake in applications - so there are problems today that weren't there after the UK election, before the referendum

Ergo they missed the chance to apply earlier and protect themselves better than today.. when the referendum writing was on the wall.

If they haven't applied for post referendum citizenship, Like Lorna, then they aren't in the group I am discussing

Jon

EuroTrash

I guess the simple answer is that most people, including those who voted for brexit, would have bet their last Rolo that the vote would be "stay". I think very few people really expected brexit to the extent of actually planning for it. We were caught with our pants down - and not just expats either, I am including Cameron, BoJo et al in that. Nobody planned for it.

Jon-Bxl

Probably. But the UK has a LONG history of Euro-scepticism, which arguably led to the referendum. Thus appealing to the long period of dissatisfied voters with the EU project. Living in Brussels for a long time, I have heard us called the 'bad brother' of Europe several times (and other similar things)

In addition: The conservatives + press + opposition etc were surprised at the Conservative majority at the last election - after a coalition government. I suggest one reason was that they promised a referendum - appealing to that dissatisfaction. So it comes as no big surprise to me that the pollsters/predictors were wrong again in the 'next big event' after the election, the referendum.

When one has committed one's life/livelihood to another country, one has to take prudent action IMO, and cover the bases. Especially when there is a known threat on the horizon. Those who left it past the referendum, to apply for citizenship, are in a riskier position today than before, and I believe they could have covered that risk with some cautious and practical action after the election.

Also whilst I know many people disagree with me, I do believe if one has decided on this 'life-commitment', to another country, then it makes sense logically - to accept the hassle and cost and take citizenship, (if you comply with the rules) thus protecting ones life-plans. Especially as one isn't giving up the UK nationality (something I would never do)

Finally as to whether applications will be tougher post brexit, I don't know, but I suspect that they will take a tougher view, where they can. Nationality and patriotism are closely linked especially with the immigration authorities. Look what happened a few days after the referendum. Cameron - a G7 country leader - went to Brussels and after a dinner, was refused entry into the meeting of leaders the following day. We are still in the EU! Pre-referendum, citizenship had to have been easier as we were all a part of a free-movement regime - so it could have been seen as a sort of 'tick in the box' by some countries.

In the end I am pretty sure that there will be some kind of deal for both sides, as we have expats in the UK too, who must not be kicked out. But that's just yet another prediction.

Jon