Originally Posted by steviedeluxe (Post 10219901)

It's not the way it actually works though. Homework will often involve grammar exercises (often with a print-out "explaining" the rules, exceptions etc). Class is for essential practice with others and with the teacher able to correct and guide conversations, bring in new vocabulary, and get used to pronunciation differences. New concepts are introduced at a pace that the students can reasonably learn. As pointed out above, if you have several nationalities in the same class it's not going to be possible to explain in people's native language anyway.
And of course it's a load of codswallop that language teachers want to draw out the learning process. If any of them came across a method that taught people to be fluent in a matter of weeks, they'd be earning an absolute fortune, able to charge £100 a lesson for their miracle way of learning a language.

Originally Posted by jackytoo (Post 10219199)

OH cut his teeth on the programme Quién sabe dónde. Anyone remember it, hilarious. It specialised in finding people who had disappeared for one reason or another and some of them weren't pleased to be found. It was the only programme he could understand at that time:lol:

Originally Posted by cricketman (Post 10219914)

Exactly

Anyway, the teachers in the language schools have no power anyway - and earn very little.

Language schools get students through the reputation of being the best - and being well located, not through drip feeding the teaching

As for proposition rules, this doesnt need to be taught until much later on when the student can understand Spanish. And in any case, I dont think there are any preposition rules in Spanish ;) What needs to be learnt at home are the grammar rules, that kind of stuff was always homework, or went through on a board in class

All the people I know who can actually speak the language went to courses like these, not friendly "lets explain it all in English" lessons. These people spend 5 years to get to know how to order at a restaurant. And nobody has ever learnt a language through language tapes, they're the biggest waste of time, unless you just want a gentle introduction

Originally Posted by steviedeluxe (Post 10219901)

It's not the way it actually works though. Homework will often involve grammar exercises (often with a print-out "explaining" the rules, exceptions etc). Class is for essential practice with others and with the teacher able to correct and guide conversations, bring in new vocabulary, and get used to pronunciation differences. New concepts are introduced at a pace that the students can reasonably learn. As pointed out above, if you have several nationalities in the same class it's not going to be possible to explain in people's native language anyway.
And of course it's a load of codswallop that language teachers want to draw out the learning process. If any of them came across a method that taught people to be fluent in a matter of weeks, they'd be earning an absolute fortune, able to charge £100 a lesson for their miracle way of learning a language.

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10220150)

A lot of language teachers are pretty crap, so even if a "grammer based, work if our for yourself using the rules" method was available, a great number of teachers TEFL inculded, would not have the ability to teach it anyway.

The driving force behind TEFL teachers is usually the desire to travel or live abroad and not the vocation of "imparting knowledge"

Tefl is a way for the unskilled to pay a few bob, do a course, and then be able to achieve their ambition to travel and finance it by giving classes.

Originally Posted by stuboy (Post 10219519)

Well I for one would dislike this method. If I don't understand something in Spanish and can't understand the following subsequent explanation then what will I most likely do?. Give up and try another method. Total immersion is a great method for some people but I suspect not for all, especially older ex-pats who are keen to learn but need another teaching style. As a teacher surely you know that not every pupil is best taught by the same method.

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10219874)

I know people who have been going to English classes for years, and still cannot get "in the train/on the train" right every time.

They have been told by the native English teachers that they will "develop and ear" for knowing which preposition in correct is this context, the way English people learn to do it, just by listening and copying.

Whereas I was taught the rule of grammar that explains this, in my own language, in about 20 minutes I knew it, and would never forget it.

It was equated to what I knew in Spanish.

ON is used when the form of transport has a defined route, as in

TRAIN, PLANE, SHIP, BUS, COACH

IN is used where there is no defined route.

HELICOPTER, CAR, TAXI, SMALL PRIVATE PLANE.

It was summed up in this way

The preposition ON is used when there is a route

CON RUTA = ON

The preposition IN is used when there is no route.

SIN RUTA = IN

Relating it to, and having the explanation in my own language helped it to sink in, but this rule is not known by many native English speakers, in fact I dont know any who knew of this rule.

They all thought it was just trial and error, which it is not.

Of course a language teacher would rather a pupil spend a week or so with "trial and error" than half an hour using the above method, for the obvious reason.

You know the old saying "what is good for the language student is not always good for the language teachers pocket".

Rather like the the weight loss industry, it would not be good economic sense to find a pill that melts away fat with no effort or sacrifice needed by the slimmer.

There is too much money being made from fat to eliminate it.

Food for thought?

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10220150)

A lot of language teachers are pretty crap, so even if a "grammer based, work if our for yourself using the rules" method was available, a great number of teachers TEFL inculded, would not have the ability to teach it anyway.

The driving force behind TEFL teachers is usually the desire to travel or live abroad and not the vocation of "imparting knowledge"

Tefl is a way for the unskilled to pay a few bob, do a course, and then be able to achieve their ambition to travel and finance it by giving classes.

Originally Posted by MoonBaby (Post 10221084)

Have you ever tried this method? The teachers, if they are any good, make sure you understand with concept checking questions. They don't just explain something and hope for the best. Any explanations are followed by activities which are designed to use and practise the new grammar and it quickly becomes clear which students get it and which students don't. You learn languages by using them, not by listening to explanations of the 'rules' in your own language.



'Trial and error' is only part of EFL teaching and it's usually used as a diagnostic, to see what the students know and can tell you before you explain the grammar. The 'test, teach, test' method is, in my experience, very effective. See what they know, show/correct them, test what you've just taught them. You don't just say, "here's an exercise on relative clauses - just figure it out for yourself." Some teachers might do that. There are bad apples in every profession.

Of course teachers often explain the grammar in the way you just did. They just do it in English. I have no idea why you seem to think the explanation you just provided couldn't be done in the target language. In many countries, the classes are multilingual, so everything has to be explained in English. The students do just fine. I just don't see the need for the teacher to constantly compare everything to the native language. It's just distracting, IMO.



That's incredibly ignorant and unfair. I don't know what kind of teachers you meet, but most of the teachers where I work are anything but unskilled. Most are educated to postgraduate level, have years of experience in various fields and have advanced teaching qualifications such as DELTA. Sure, the stereotypical 'TEFL backpackers' do exist, but they're far from the norm in Europe. Unfortunately, opinions like yours are all too common and lead to some students treating their teachers like rubbish. It's incredibly grating to have studied and researched in the field of language acquisition, have years of teaching experience, put your heart and soul into planning lessons and doing your best for the students and have some teenager fresh out of school looking down on you because you're 'just' a TEFL teacher.

Originally Posted by Domino (Post 10221823)

probably no more incredibly grating to be 60+ decades of life experience in a disparate variety of countries to be looked down on by some TSFL teacher who hasnt even visited the country whose language they are teaching because you are "just a SFL student"

Originally Posted by MoonBaby (Post 10221084)

Have you ever tried this method? The teachers, if they are any good, make sure you understand with concept checking questions. They don't just explain something and hope for the best. Any explanations are followed by activities which are designed to use and practise the new grammar and it quickly becomes clear which students get it and which students don't. You learn languages by using them, not by listening to explanations of the 'rules' in your own language.



'Trial and error' is only part of EFL teaching and it's usually used as a diagnostic, to see what the students know and can tell you before you explain the grammar. The 'test, teach, test' method is, in my experience, very effective. See what they know, show/correct them, test what you've just taught them. You don't just say, "here's an exercise on relative clauses - just figure it out for yourself." Some teachers might do that. There are bad apples in every profession.

Of course teachers often explain the grammar in the way you just did. They just do it in English. I have no idea why you seem to think the explanation you just provided couldn't be done in the target language. In many countries, the classes are multilingual, so everything has to be explained in English. The students do just fine. I just don't see the need for the teacher to constantly compare everything to the native language. It's just distracting, IMO.



That's incredibly ignorant and unfair. I don't know what kind of teachers you meet, but most of the teachers where I work are anything but unskilled. Most are educated to postgraduate level, have years of experience in various fields and have advanced teaching qualifications such as DELTA. Sure, the stereotypical 'TEFL backpackers' do exist, but they're far from the norm in Europe. Unfortunately, opinions like yours are all too common and lead to some students treating their teachers like rubbish. It's incredibly grating to have studied and researched in the field of language acquisition, have years of teaching experience, put your heart and soul into planning lessons and doing your best for the students and have some teenager fresh out of school looking down on you because you're 'just' a TEFL teacher.

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10228993)

I have known people who have had classes with the teachers that work for a few terms in language academies and their level after years of class is grim.

So could it be that they are too stupid to learn, or could it be the fault of the teacher, or the method used? As it seems such a common senario.

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10228993)

So could it be that they are too stupid to learn QUOTE]

Pretty much

There's plenty of means to learn most of the major languages from the comfort of your own home if you really want to, and plenty of info to point you towards the best way to learn it

The culture of blaming teachers is a bad one. I didnt go to a good school, some of my teachers were OK but many were useless. Didnt matter though, just read the bleeding books and get on with it. Any Spaniard who lives on the Costas has plenty of opportunity to improve their English, as do the English people living anywhere in Spain

Some people have barely learnt anything in their whole lives so they're not going to start now

Originally Posted by JLFS (Post 10228993)

I have known people who have had classes with the teachers that work for a few terms in language academies and their level after years of class is grim.

So could it be that they are too stupid to learn, or could it be the fault of the teacher, or the method used? As it seems such a common senario.

Originally Posted by cricketman (Post 10229033)

Pretty much

There's plenty of means to learn most of the major languages from the comfort of your own home if you really want to, and plenty of info to point you towards the best way to learn it

The culture of blaming teachers is a bad one. I didnt go to a good school, some of my teachers were OK but many were useless. Didnt matter though, just read the bleeding books and get on with it. Any Spaniard who lives on the Costas has plenty of opportunity to improve their English, as do the English people living anywhere in Spain

Some people have barely learnt anything in their whole lives so they're not going to start now

Originally Posted by raddickle (Post 10229459)

Back in 1967 I was part of an experiment in which we were taught French by an audio visual course , grammar was not part of the course, we wrote nothing down on paper, and we were not spoken to in English. We watched slides of 'situations' with a tape of the conversations that were taking place which we would repeat afterwards. This lasted for two years after which we were then taught grammatical French. Everyone who was part of that course failed their oral French exam.

Originally Posted by MoonBaby (Post 10231152)

It's impossible to say without having met the students, but yes, some people are just stupid and/or lazy. You can have the best teacher in the world, but learning a language still requires a great deal of motivation and hard work on the part of the student. I have students who think they can absorb everything just by being in class without doing a tap outside class and it just doesn't work that way. There are very few students who are just unteachable, but they do exist.



I agree. Most of my school teachers were useless, as in they didn't even try. We were often given exercises to do and pages and pages of stuff to read while the teacher read the newspaper. I still did well. I know lots of people who did badly despite attending the best schools and having private tuition.



That's basically the Linguaphone method. Personally I don't think it works unless you are the type of person who can hear something and work out the grammar rules yourself and even then, you need to do a lot of work on your own to check the grammar, look up exceptions etc. It worked reasonably well for me with Spanish for the first two years, but I think I still benefited from traditional classes after that. I think grammar needs to be taught, I just don't think it needs to be done in the student's native language. I had a Pre-Intermediate level class today and we looked at 'to be/get used to something'. The students are quite low level and from different countries (Koreans, Japanese, Colombians, Saudis, Thais and Iranians). None of them had ever seen this structure before, yet by the end of the class, every student could use it accurately. Nobody needed to have it explained in their own language or even to use a dictionary. I'll be checking this structure discreetly (:p) over the next few weeks to make sure they really get it and continue to use it.