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Just had my residency turned down

Just had my residency turned down

Old Feb 2nd 2021, 2:01 am
  #61  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Barriej
This is the complete residency document as issued in 2020.

https://www.inclusion.gob.es/fichero...it_2020_en.pdf

And this is the Q&A for the agreement.

Hopefully it may help.

This link gives all of the above and will take you to the Spanish language versions. Might be of some help.

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en...residence.aspx.
It should be noted that nowhere in that oft quoted document is the word 'padron' as much as mentioned, nor should it be as to labour the point yet again ONLY RESIDENTS ARE ALLOWED TO BE ON A PADRON so according to Spain's own rules the cart cannot come before the horse!

In Alicante a padron is wrongly being demanded and many town halls are issuing temporary ones strictly for the purpose of the TIE application.

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Old Feb 2nd 2021, 2:14 am
  #62  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Rita1
I wish I could be so sceptical.

I can only imagine that the database now contains entries to show who has and who hasn't applied for the TIE. The caller was able to give info about when the Residency was first issued and when it was renewed/made permanent.
This is not true and you are either making it up or being economical about truth. I have had a number of different work contracts and none of what you say makes sense. The fact that you say they record who hasn't applied gives the game away, me thinks!!
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Old Feb 2nd 2021, 2:20 am
  #63  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Chipmonk
This is not true and you are either making it up or being economical about truth. I have had a number of different work contracts and none of what you say makes sense. The fact that you say they record who hasn't applied gives the game away, me thinks!!
I am absolutely not lying. How do they know he hasn't applied for the TIE? I don't know. They must have a record.

Anyway, I posted here as a friendly warning for anyone who might find themselves in a similar position. Noone is obliged to take heed.
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Old Feb 2nd 2021, 3:07 am
  #64  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Notdunroamin
It should be noted that nowhere in that oft quoted document is the word 'padron' as much as mentioned, nor should it be as to labour the point yet again ONLY RESIDENTS ARE ALLOWED TO BE ON A PADRON so according to Spain's own rules the cart cannot come before the horse!

In Alicante a padron is wrongly being demanded and many town halls are issuing temporary ones strictly for the purpose of the TIE application.
This is the whole crux of my application refusal though I don't know yet if there is a way through it.

As an update I heard from CAB Spain. I paid for advice and the founder herself no less took on my question. After requesting all the documentation she came back with:

"You have a month to appeal from the date you received the letter. Please consider using a Smart Card Immigration lawyer to appeal or to put the application in again. www.lawyersmartcard.eu"

So basically telling me something I already knew and then trying to get me to sign up to one of her affiliated services.

Suffice to say I would not recommend CAB Spain to anyone after that experience.


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Old Feb 2nd 2021, 3:15 am
  #65  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Silk
This is the whole crux of my application refusal though I don't know yet if there is a way through it.

As an update I heard from CAB Spain. I paid for advice and the founder herself no less took on my question. After requesting all the documentation she came back with:

"You have a month to appeal from the date you received the letter. Please consider using a Smart Card Immigration lawyer to appeal or to put the application in again. www.lawyersmartcard.eu"

So basically telling me something I already knew and then trying to get me to sign up to one of her affiliated services.

Suffice to say I would not recommend CAB Spain to anyone after that experience.

I think I told you that about CAB. It basically pretends it is an official UK government connected site aligned with CA in UK. It's a private domain name which provides advice to UK expats in Spain with the intention of attracting business for affiliated lawyers. It often puts people on radio shows around the Costas where it acts as an official mouthpiece but if you listen very carefully they always add very subtle disclaimers about information they provide always telling you to use an official lawyer which the radio host carefully suggests a list of which can be found on the website. They got the Universal healthcare law completely wrong a few years ago and caused alot of confusion amongst expats
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Old Feb 2nd 2021, 3:25 am
  #66  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Chipmonk
I think I told you that about CAB. It basically pretends it is an official UK government connected site aligned with CA in UK. It's a private domain name which provides advice to UK expats in Spain with the intention of attracting business for affiliated lawyers. It often puts people on radio shows around the Costas where it acts as an official mouthpiece but if you listen very carefully they always add very subtle disclaimers about information they provide always telling you to use an official lawyer which the radio host carefully suggests a list of which can be found on the website. They got the Universal healthcare law completely wrong a few years ago and caused alot of confusion amongst expats
Yes you did but I had already contacted them so thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt and report back. You were proved most correct. Total waste of time and money as expected.
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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 7:06 am
  #67  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Notdunroamin
It should be noted that nowhere in that oft quoted document is the word 'padron' as much as mentioned, nor should it be as to labour the point yet again ONLY RESIDENTS ARE ALLOWED TO BE ON A PADRON so according to Spain's own rules the cart cannot come before the horse!

In Alicante a padron is wrongly being demanded and many town halls are issuing temporary ones strictly for the purpose of the TIE application.
For form ex-23, you need it if your current address is different to the one they have on file for your green certificate.

You can check by going here, choosing the province, and choosing the Brexit option (second-to-last), on the third page you get a list of what you need.

Certificado o Volante de empadronamiento actual en caso de que haya cambiado de domicilio, (expedido en los tres últimos meses). Original y copia
I guess Alicante for some reason are demanding one from everybody even if they haven't moved.

Edited, I remembered something wrongly.

Last edited by DLC; Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:18 am.
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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 7:21 am
  #68  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Chipmonk
This is not true and you are either making it up or being economical about truth. I have had a number of different work contracts and none of what you say makes sense. The fact that you say they record who hasn't applied gives the game away, me thinks!!
You book an appointment with a centralised booking system and give your NIE when booking, they can easily check who's applied.
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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 7:31 am
  #69  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by DLC
I guess Alicante for some reason are demanding one from everybody even if they haven't moved.

Edited, I remembered something wrongly.

Alicante are only demanding it for those who are applying via the WA terms. i.e. First time applicants.
Don't know what is needed for those applying for the TIE who are already resident as I have no knowledge as this doesn't affect me..
When we first looked at the paperwork needed in 2019 the Padron was not being asked for, all they wanted was a copy of a long term rental or the deeds to your property (and if the property that it was not mortgaged)

It all changed at the beginning of 2020 after the withdrawal agreement was signed.

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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 7:45 am
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Chipmonk
Yes. It's the Segundo paragraph that basically says that the padron was 2021 and therefore not applicable. Given that they only mention that I would say it was a cursory flip through documents and as soon as they saw something dated 2021 they rejected it. If they dont expressly ask for padron see if you can make a new application without padron or any documents 2021 and you might find it gets a bit further into the system. If that fails then you will definitely need a LOCAL lawyer to help. That is you need someone who knows someone in the office. It might seem shady but that is how it kind of works and it basically means someone will actually take a more focussed assessment.

request your empadronamiento historial at the ayuntamiento. That cannot be refuted, only faulted by one not registering when one should have on legitimate settlement.

best of luck 👍🏼
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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 8:39 am
  #71  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Barriej
Alicante are only demanding it for those who are applying via the WA terms. i.e. First time applicants.
Don't know what is needed for those applying for the TIE who are already resident as I have no knowledge as this doesn't affect me..
When we first looked at the paperwork needed in 2019 the Padron was not being asked for, all they wanted was a copy of a long term rental or the deeds to your property (and if the property that it was not mortgaged)

It all changed at the beginning of 2020 after the withdrawal agreement was signed.
This is odd, if you're going the form ex-20 route the padrón is given as an example of a way of proving residency in the Brexit PDF but it's not the only one:

¿Cómo obtengo el documento de residencia?

Se recuerda que España, desde el 6 de julio, ya no expide certificados de registro para ciudadanos británicos. Para la obtención del documento de residencia podrá acceder al procedimiento establecido al efecto presentando personalmente la solicitud, usted o su representante, en la oficina de extranjería de la provincia en la que resida o electrónicamente . Entre otros requisitos deberá acreditar, que es residía en España antes la fecha de finalización del periodo transitorio (por ejemplo, a través de su certificado de empadronamiento, contratos de alquiler…) conforme a las condiciones previstas en el Acuerdo de Retirada.
Edit: The Brexit FAQ cites the withdrawal agreement and the WA guidance notes say this:

1.1.3.1 Having "exercised there their right of residence in accordance with Union law"

The exercise of the right of residence means that an EU citizen or a UK national lawfully resides in the host State in accordance with Union free movement law before the end of the transition period.

All possible situations where the right of residence stems from Union free movement rules are covered.

This includes right of residence, irrespective of whether it is a permanent right of residence, irrespective of its duration (e.g. an arrival in the host State one week before the end of the transition period and residing there as a job-seeker under Article 45 TFEU is sufficient) and irrespective of the capacity in which these rights are exercised (as a worker, self-employed person, student, job-seekers, etc.).

It is sufficient that the right of residence was exercised in accordance with the conditions Union law attaches to the right of residence (case C-162/09 Lassal or joined cases C-424 and 425/10 Ziolkowski and Szeja).

Possession of a residence document is not a prerequisite for lawful residence in accordance with Union law because under Union law the right of residence is conferred directly on EU citizens by the Treaty and is not dependent upon their having fulfilled administrative procedures (Recital 11 of Directive 2004/38/EC). On the other hand, the possession of a residence document issued under Union law does not, in itself, make the residence to be in accordance with Union law (case C-325/09 Dias).
So in this case, it looks like applying to be included in the padrón before the end of 2020 is some proof that someone was exercising their right of residence under EU treaty rights.

Last edited by DLC; Feb 3rd 2021 at 9:00 am.
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Old Feb 3rd 2021, 11:52 pm
  #72  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Hi Silk not sure if this could be of use to you? You may already be aware of this.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...22269771210763
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Old Feb 7th 2021, 11:04 pm
  #73  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Thanks for the extra info guys.

OK, latest update.


My Attorney has been in touch to say "....the case is very complicate and possibilities are small."

Personally from reading the rest of his message he didn't really give the paperwork much of a look as he missed several key pieces so I think he doesn't really want to take on the case so just booted it back to me.

Anyway have spoken to IOM this morning and they seem far more positive so we will see.


Also CAB Spain has been back in touch with some useful information so I have revised my opinion of them and would like to thank Myra for her opinion.


"The padron in law is not proof that you are residing in Spain. The same extranjeria offices have stated that on refusal letters when the padron has been accepted. You can show residency by any other means accepted in law. Furthermore it is not no listed as a document required."

So yet another opinion that the Padron is not required (IOM stated the same)
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Old Feb 12th 2021, 9:40 pm
  #74  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Originally Posted by Silk
So yet another opinion that the Padron is not required (IOM stated the same)
Yes, but what matters is what is happening in practice.

Every query to Extranjería gets the same response, that the TIE is not obligatory and the green card is still valid.
Any query anywhere else gets the response that it's an issue for Extranjería.

That this is a result of misapplication of rules or miscommunication of departments doesn't help anyone who can't work as a consequence of it.
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Old Feb 14th 2021, 8:41 pm
  #75  
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Default Re: Just had my residency turned down

Update, message from friend this morning.
He contacted his union for advice last week and they told him to call their migrations team. He expected them to confirm that the TIE is not necessary, but they did NOT. The person he spoke to told him he MUST apply for the TIE because that's what the law says.

This may be what the law says only for those who want to work, I don't know, but under the circumstances I would strongly recommend to ANYONE who still hasn't done this to do it asap, just in case you run into problems at some point in the future.
It's only 12€ (I think) and worth it for peace of mind.
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